The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	marton
	I would argue any country where a quarter of the population cannot vote is not democratic!

If you add in the overseas Swiss who CAN vote (such as my daughter), it's much less than 1/4!

Tom

[marton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	And as we know "taxation without representation" pretty much sums up the lot of Americans abroad. Yeah, they can vote, but how many of their reps actually give a damn about them? I think Swiss voting eligibility has some merit. If you want a say in what the country you're living in does, then get the citizenship. It's pretty easy to do in many countries.

Indeed, in the UK you only have to complete what is claimed to be an 85 page citizenship request form although I could only find this 31 page form

	Quote:	TobiasM
	Can you vote here then Loz, I was unaware you were a Swiss citizens? Its semi proportional, and often a big vote or referendum goes through where a backwards Canton with a tiny population will overrule a Canton with a larger electorate, that hardly seems to be that fair. I know most of my Swiss friends and colleagues are always remonstrating that. But you are right it is certainly one of the most democratic nations in the world.

I can apply for citizenship very soon. Still undecided as to whether or not to do it though. But whether I can vote is neither here nor there. I believe it's no small coincidence that as well as being (the most?) democratic country in the world, Switzerland is also the happiest, wealthiest, most educated etc. It's a privilege living here.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I can apply for citizenship very soon. Still undecided as to whether or not to do it though. But whether I can vote is neither here nor there. I believe it's no small coincidence that as well as being (the most?) democratic country in the world, Switzerland is also the happiest, wealthiest, most educated etc. It's a privilege living here.

Suicide rate is alarming high for the happiest country in the world, if your earning 120k plus then possibly, if your earning under 50k then probably not. For lower earners or people who can't be bothered to work they can live far better in other places. I speak from experience retiring at 52 after living in CH longer than anywhere else as an adult. Could I be bothered to apply for a passport, this had been an option to me for 8 years...... no I could not YMMV.

[Fish Paste]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Switzerland is also the happiest, wealthiest

They ( some anyway) may be wealthy, but happy they are not (huge sweeping generalisation, based on what I see with my own eyes).

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	As we just saw in the US! Clue (get one): there is are reason that most modern democratic countries have two houses, one based on population, the other based on states. Tom

So you are clearly stating that the US is equally as undemocratic as Switzerland. I guess we can all die happily, knowing that its really wasn't the majority that has got us into this mess in the first place then

[Reb77Br]

Britons living in the EU face Brexit backlash, leaked paper warns

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I can apply for citizenship very soon. Still undecided as to whether or not to do it though. But whether I can vote is neither here nor there. I believe it's no small coincidence that as well as being (the most?) democratic country in the world, Switzerland is also the happiest, wealthiest, most educated etc. It's a privilege living here.

Well what are you waiting for? The pearly gates of the cow shed have opened to you, aren't you a lucky boy.

On the bright side after yesterdays results, everyone who was previously denied citizenship can finally do the same too, and yes its nice to see democracy at work for the right reasons for once.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	after yesterdays results, everyone who was previously denied citizenship can finally do the same too.

No, they can't.

Tom

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Suicide rate is alarming high for the happiest country in the world.

There are plenty of supposedly happy places to live with higher suicide rates than Switzerland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...y_suicide_rate

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	There are plenty of supposedly happy places to live with higher suicide rates than Switzerland. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...y_suicide_rate

Swiss rate is nearly 50% higher than the UK, that really makes me scratch my head with regards the CH being a great & happy place to live. No doubt the many months of fog in the big cities has a lot to answer for.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Swiss rate is nearly 50% higher than the UK, that really makes me scratch my head with regards the CH being a great & happy place to live. No doubt the many months of fog in the big cities has a lot to answer for.

I presume "legal suicide" by Dignitas is included?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Suicide rate is alarming high for the happiest country in the world, if your earning 120k plus then possibly, if your earning under 50k then probably not. For lower earners or people who can't be bothered to work they can live far better in other places. I speak from experience retiring at 52 after living in CH longer than anywhere else as an adult. Could I be bothered to apply for a passport, this had been an option to me for 8 years...... no I could not YMMV.

Those suicides are probably a mixture of people who end up at Dignitas and those who can't bear to how good everyone else has got it!

	Quote:	Fish Paste
	They ( some anyway) may be wealthy, but happy they are not (huge sweeping generalisation, based on what I see with my own eyes).

I base my "huge sweeping generalisations" on statistics rather than what I see with my own eyes. It's by no means perfect here, we're not talking Elysium, however there's a reason why Switzerland consistently ranks in the top five in quality of life studies.

[Slaphead]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Swiss rate is nearly 50% higher than the UK, that really makes me scratch my head with regards the CH being a great & happy place to live. No doubt the many months of fog in the big cities has a lot to answer for.

Maybe it doesn't help, but I think it's a bit deeper than that. The way I figure it is that when you've lived all your life in a country with wealth, good earnings, good social security safety nets, and an overall good quality of life then it becomes the norm.

In such a scenario expectations tend to be quite high, and it can be that some people consider that they've not achieved those expectations. Also day to day living here is in general less challenging, with fewer big problems IME. Unfortunately in this situation it's small problems that become magnified - quite often you can't say that you've got bigger things to worry about because, well, you haven't. Combine those two factors and you've got a recipe for depression.

I've been here long enough for the general good quality of life to slowly become the norm. I do find it useful every now and again to take a step back and reconsider my position, and compare my life here as to how I would imagine it would have panned out back in the UK if I'd stayed there. I always come out feeling happier when I've done that. However for those that have lived here all their life there is nothing else to compare it against.

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:	Slaphead
	I've been here long enough for the general good quality of life to slowly become the norm. I do find it useful every now and again to take a step back and reconsider my position, and compare my life here as to how I would imagine it would have panned out back in the UK if I'd stayed there. I always come out feeling happier when I've done that. However for those that have lived here all their life there is nothing else to compare it against.

Agreed, that life here is much sweeter than in many countries, but if you fail to make the grade you might find your "friends" shun you and you end up on Swiss social security. Many suicides are teenagers that fear they cannot be as successful as their parents and friends: there is tremendous pressure on people to succeed here, something that highly qualified "visitors" rarely see.

[marton]

	Quote:	Reb77Br
	Britons living in the EU face Brexit backlash, leaked paper warns

Another benefit of living in Switzerland, the bilaterals (including with UK) state that if they are cancelled then people will retain any rights they gained.

	Quote:	Reb77Br
	Britons living in the EU face Brexit backlash, leaked paper warns

This is such biased reporting that completely misrepresents the facts. It's scaremongering of the worst kind.

May offered to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK. It was rejected.
It's clearly part of the UK's negotiating strategy as it's part of the 12 objectives.

[amogles]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	So you are clearly stating that the US is equally as undemocratic as Switzerland. I guess we can all die happily, knowing that its really wasn't the majority that has got us into this mess in the first place then

Unfettered democracy is like two foxes and a goose voting who is for dinner.

This why you need checks and balances. The second chamber is typically set up to give minorities a stronger voice. Maybed it doesn't always work, but to totally brush aside the concept is not the solution.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	This is such biased reporting that completely misrepresents the facts. It's scaremongering of the worst kind. May offered to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK. It was rejected. It's clearly part of the UK's negotiating strategy as it's part of the 12 objectives.

I believe May misrepresented the situation.

The European leaders clearly said "no negotiation before UK invokes Art. 50", simple as that

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	I hope you have better luck than I did in trying to find any information about that poll. The story makes no sense, but there's no link to any reference to check the figures and questions. Why would that be?

From Marton's link, comments on the Jan 27th poll (my bolding):
"Although framing UK-EU negotiations questions is a difficult task, we asked the public how they would most like the outcome to be evaluated. A majority (53%) opt for leaving the EU no matter what happens in the negotiating process, with a quarter (26%) wanting a second referendum on the terms of the deal. One in ten (12%) prefers for a final decision to be made in Parliament. In the event that negotiations fail to yield an acceptable outcome within the permitted time frame, just shy of a majority (49%) believe that we should simply leave without a deal – a third (33%) would want to see a postponement or suspension of our exit (with 62% of Remainers understandably preferring this way forward)."


Nothing that sustains the guardian article. Could it be based on a typo? 35 instead of 53?