The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	What has that even remotely to do with "the left"? If you're thinking I am part of "the left", think again.

Every comment like this is attributed to "the left". Whether you're left wing or not is irrelevant.

indeed- I have no idea of where that fallacious concept comes from- that to be anti Brexit, or anti populism, or racism, or anti fascism, or anti Gelders, Trump or Le Pen, or feminist (notice small f) or ...

= being on the left ?!?:msncrazy in the 21st C - totally outdated concept The only parties who have been and are fighting against Brexit are the Liberal Democrats and the Greens. The PM for Holland is hardly left wing either

[J2488]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The Nazis never won the popular vote. UKIP won 12.5% of the vote last time out and yet the Queen has today authorised Brexit. "Unpleasant amount of common ground". Yet another example of why the left are finished.

Someone forgot to tell the Dutch, then.

And the Austrians.

	Quote:	J2488
	Someone forgot to tell the Dutch, then. And the Austrians.

Go and count the sum total of what Left wing parties polled last night.

And then go and look at the current polls in Austria.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Every comment like this is attributed to "the left". Whether you're left wing or not is irrelevant.

Many of the references on here to "the left" could easily, and less hysterically, be swapped for "moderates".

I think people are quickly getting weary of the glory-seeking gobshites which are talking the big talk and walking the big walk purely to get themselves into a seat of power.

Just because they are not getting elected does not mean it's because of screaming beardy liberals, it's just your average Joe seeing through the thin veneer of pretend credibility.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Why are the press trying to compare Brexit with Wilders? One is a far right party that want's to ban a religion. The other is simply leaving the European Union. There are no similarities between the two apart from a minor part of Wilders' manifesto in that he also want's the leave the EU. The election was ran on an entirely different theme though.

My Dutch isn't great, but his second most important point hardly seems minor to him:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/geert-...nifesto-2017-2

	Quote:
	Many of the references on here to "the left" could easily, and less hysterically, be swapped for "moderates".

True, but these are times we're living in. The media is as much to blame for this as anyone.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Go and count the sum total of what Left wing parties polled last night. And then go and look at the current polls in Austria.

In the USA, there were indeed a lt more voices for the Democrats than the Republicans (as you speak of sum total) - and yet you could hardly call Hilary 'on the left' in so many ways.

	Quote:
	In the USA, there were indeed a lt more voices for the Democrats than the Republicans (as you speak of sum total) - and yet you could hardly call Hilary 'on the left' in so many ways.

She isn't Left at all. Left wing politics barely exists in the US.

Look at Europe though, and you'll see the steady demise. France will be a race between a right wing conservative, an elitist right winger masquerading as a centerist and the far right. The top three polling parties in Holland were all right wing. In the UK Labour are finished. It's the same pattern everywhere. The SPD are only polling high in Germany because people are desperate for an alternative to Merkel.

	Quote:
	My Dutch isn't great, but his second most important point hardly seems minor to him: http://uk.businessinsider.com/geert-...nifesto-2017-2

...and in the other direction looking at UKIP (I'm taking this from Wikipedia as I really don't want to contaminate myself with UKIPs own website)...:

	Quote:
	In UKIP's literature, the party has placed an emphasis on "restoring Britishness" and counteracting what it sees as a "serious existential crisis" exhibited by the "Islamification" of Britain, the "pseudo-nationalisms" of Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, and the multicultural and supranational policies promoted by "the cultural left", describing its own stance as being "unashamedly unicultural".

[J2488]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Go and count the sum total of what Left wing parties polled last night. And then go and look at the current polls in Austria.

Alright.

Left Wing and Liberal parties:
PvdA - 9
SP - 14
D66 - 19
GroenLinks - 14
PvdD - 5
VVD - 33
DENK -3

Total seats held by the above parties as of 2017 =97.

Total seats held by above parties (or equivalents) in 2012 = 41+38+15+12+3 = 109

Seats needed for a majority - 75.

Now, my maths may be a tad off, but if i remember my schooling correctly, 97 is, in fact, greater than 75...Can anyone confirm for me?

If, in the middle of the greatest crisis of the left wing, the right wing was able to reduce the majority of the left wing parties by only 12 seats, and less than 10%, while at the same time giving a foothold to new left wing parties, in an election they were widely expected to be the biggest player in, and at a time when the traditional left wing party has suffered a massive drop in support then i'm afraid the right has indeed failed.

By the way:

Total increases for all right wing parties = +13 seats.

And that is only if very generously, you include the CDA, who are actually centrist and not right wing. Without including the CDA, your right wing soared in the polls by all of 7 seats.

Total increases for the left wing parties? +22 seats.

Yeah, the left wing is "finished".

	Quote:	Loz1983
	She isn't Left at all. Left wing politics barely exists in the US. Look at Europe though, and you'll see the steady demise. France will be a race between a right wing conservative, an elitist right winger masquerading as a centerist and the far right. The top three polling parties in Holland were all right wing. In the UK Labour are finished. It's the same pattern everywhere. The SPD are only polling high in Germany because people are desperate for an alternative to Merkel.

I guess you've not looked at any French opinion polls for the last month or so then? Or do you somehow put Macron in one of those boxes?

[J2488]

	Quote:
	I guess you've not looked at any French opinion polls for the last month or so then? Or do you somehow put Macron in one of those boxes?

I believe Macron would be the "elitist right winger masquerading as a centerist".

Loz seems to have forgotten that his party, En Marche, describes itself as a socially liberal, pro Europe, party.

And the fact that Macron himself is a europhile, pro immigration, environmentalist.

	Quote:	J2488
	Alright. Left Wing and Liberal parties: PvdA - 9 SP - 14 D66 - 19 GroenLinks - 14 PvdD - 5 VVD - 33 DENK -3 Total seats held by the above parties as of 2017 =97. Total seats held by above parties (or equivalents) in 2012 = 41+38+15+12+3 = 109 Seats needed for a majority - 75. Now, my maths may be a tad off, but if i remember my schooling correctly, 97 is, in fact, greater than 75...Can anyone confirm for me? If, in the middle of the greatest crisis of the left wing, the right wing was able to reduce the majority of the left wing parties by only 12 seats, and less than 10%, while at the same time giving a foothold to new left wing parties, in an election they were widely expected to be the biggest player in, and at a time when the traditional left wing party has suffered a massive drop in support then i'm afraid the right has indeed failed. By the way: Total increases for all right wing parties = +13 seats. And that is only if very generously, you include the CDA, who are actually centrist and not right wing. Without including the CDA, your right wing soared in the polls by all of 7 seats. Total increases for the left wing parties? +22 seats. Yeah, the left wing is "finished".

You've labeled the dutch equivalent of the Tory party as left wing. You're explanation is senseless.

I'll make it easy for you. How about you tot up the total number of seats won by Left wing Social Democrat party. Here's a hint, they won 25 seats last time out.

[J2488]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	You've labeled the dutch equivalent of the Tory party as left wing. You're explanation is senseless. I'll make it easy for you. How about you tot up the total number of seats won by Left wing Social Democrat party. Here's a hint, they won 25 seats last time out.

Did i now?

The VVD believes in (among other things)
Sustainable development
Secularism
Emancipation
Cultural assimilation
Animal rights
pro-Europeanism
Internationalism
Relaxation of drug laws
Universal health care
Pro Choice
Euthanasia


Yes, they're a carbon copy of the UK Tory party.



Loz, you have good days and bad days. You're having a bad day. Take it like a champ and sign off for a while. This time, the right wing failed. You win some, you lose some.

	Quote:	J2488
	Did i now? The VVD believes in (among other things) Sustainable development Secularism Emancipation Cultural assimilation Animal rights pro-Europeanism Internationalism Relaxation of drug laws Universal health care Pro Choice Euthanasia Yes, they're a carbon copy of the UK Tory party. Loz, you have good days and bad days. You're having a bad day. Take it like a champ and sign off for a while. This time, the right wing failed. You win some, you lose some.

The stupid, it burns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...he_Netherlands

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The stupid, it burns.

Getting desperate - posting unreadable images

Did you read the bit (I could eventually!!) where it said the VVD ideaology is liberalism - as you wrote "The stupid, it burns"

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The stupid, it burns.

Burning you this time. Writing a label in a box doesn't make it right. The tories stopped the centre part of "centre-right" in the 80s.

Edit...OK, maybe a brief wander back under Major

	Quote:	J2488
	Loz, you have good days and bad days. You're having a bad day. Take it like a champ and sign off for a while. This time, the right wing failed. You win some, you lose some.

Been great, hasn't it!

	Quote:
	I guess you've not looked at any French opinion polls for the last month or so then? Or do you somehow put Macron in one of those boxes?

Macron is the elite. He's a former Rothschild banker that made it straight to being the Minister for Economy without running for election. He's all style, no substance and ruthlessly ambitious. The worst possible combination for becoming President and France will only find this out when it's too late. He's only a centrist if you're using Stalin as a benchmark for what left of center is.