The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	marton
	Getting desperate - posting unreadable images Did you read the bit (I could eventually!!) where it said the VVD ideaology is liberalism - as you wrote "The stupid, it burns"

When were you last in Malmo again? 1992?

[J2488]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Macron is the elite. He's a former Rothschild banker that made it straight to being the Minister for Economy without running for election. He's all style, no substance and ruthlessly ambitious. The worst possible combination for becoming President and France will only find this out when it's too late. He's only a centrist if you're using Stalin as a benchmark for what left of center is.

As opposed to the Right, who have no style, no substance, no sense, and yet, the same ambition?

Isnt Farage, the darling lovechild of the Right, an ex banker too?

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	When were you last in Malmo again? 1992?

You concede the point then

[J2488]

Saw this and thought i would share :-)

	Quote:	marton
	You concede the point then

No, Malmo is totally relevant to a discussion about Holland and what constitutes centre-right there.

Only a libtard feminazi would fail to see Loz's genius point.

	Quote:	J2488
	Saw this and thought i would share :-)

It's a bit early to celebrate, don't you think?

Mr Wilders' party still won 20 seats.

That should be cause for contemplation, not celebration, surely?

	Quote:
	It's a bit early to celebrate, don't you think? Mr Wilders' party still won 20 seats. That should be cause for contemplation, not celebration, surely?

Perhaps we can allow ourselves a wee dram tonight, and get to thinking about the whys and wherefores tomorrow.

[kriss kross]

	Quote:
	It's a bit early to celebrate, don't you think? Mr Wilders' party still won 20 seats. That should be cause for contemplation, not celebration, surely?

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

	Quote:	marton
	You concede the point then

Did you read the bit where wrote the VVD isn't left wing?

[J2488]

	Quote:
	It's a bit early to celebrate, don't you think? Mr Wilders' party still won 20 seats. That should be cause for contemplation, not celebration, surely?

20 seats out of 150 means they have about 13%.

Considering there was a chance (and he was on track to) he could have won 40 seats, and 27%, this is indeed a significant blow. Take into account they had 24 seats in 2010, and 15 seats in 2012. And this during the period when they were most likely to be able to make gains. That means they arent really growing or advancing. That in itself is a good thing - their message has stopped resonating with greater numbers of people.

The other thing to take into account is that they will not be in a position to dictate policy. They may be able to influence it, but their influence will be counter-influenced by the parties who oppose them. In other words, they will not really be effective. They wont be part of the Opposition coalition, so they will be reduced to sniping from the sidelines and providing sound bites. Im happy with that.

	Quote:	J2488
	20 seats out of 150 means they have about 13%. Considering there was a chance (and he was on track to) he could have won 40 seats, and 27%, this is indeed a significant blow. Take into account they had 24 seats in 2010, and 15 seats in 2012. And this during the period when they were most likely to be able to make gains. That means they arent really growing or advancing. That in itself is a good thing - their message has stopped resonating with greater numbers of people. The other thing to take into account is that they will not be in a position to dictate policy. They may be able to influence it, but their influence will be counter-influenced by the parties who oppose them. In other words, they will not really be effective. They wont be part of the Opposition coalition, so they will be reduced to sniping from the sidelines and providing sound bites. Im happy with that.

I'm delighted for you.

Complacency will be the death of democracy.

	Quote:
	Complacency will be the death of democracy.

Relevance?

AFAIK, J2488 isn't Dutch and doesn't live there. Wilders is not his direct fight any more than it is mine. He rightfully points out that PVV have indeed stagnated in the longer term despite massive media coverage and despite the recent refugee issues. I see no reason why those of us who aren't alt-right shouldn't celebrate that.

Nowhere does he say the fight against PVV is finally won and should be stopped. I'm certain their opponents in the Netherlands think the same way.

	Quote:
	Relevance? AFAIK, J2488 isn't Dutch and doesn't live there. Wilders is not his direct fight any more than it is mine. He rightfully points out that PVV have indeed stagnated in the longer term despite massive media coverage and despite the recent refugee issues. I see no reason why those of us who aren't alt-right shouldn't celebrate that. Nowhere does he say the fight against PVV is finally won and should be stopped. I'm certain their opponents in the Netherlands think the same way.

Would you be so relaxed about it if the BNP won 20 seats in the House of Commons?

Like I said, I see nothing to celebrate here, but I'm delighted that other people can find some joy in a far-right party having 20 seats in a European national assembly.

	Quote:	J2488
	20 seats out of 150 means they have about 13%. Considering there was a chance (and he was on track to) he could have won 40 seats, and 27%, this is indeed a significant blow. Take into account they had 24 seats in 2010, and 15 seats in 2012. And this during the period when they were most likely to be able to make gains. That means they arent really growing or advancing. That in itself is a good thing - their message has stopped resonating with greater numbers of people. The other thing to take into account is that they will not be in a position to dictate policy. They may be able to influence it, but their influence will be counter-influenced by the parties who oppose them. In other words, they will not really be effective. They wont be part of the Opposition coalition, so they will be reduced to sniping from the sidelines and providing sound bites. Im happy with that.

Still missing the bigger picture. Rutte had to step into Wilders' territory in order to avoid humiliation. Wilders has changed the debate and got everyone talking about what he wants to have discussed.

But it's fine. Ignore the reality. The rest of Europe is. Watch what happens next.

[J2488]

	Quote:
	I'm delighted for you. Complacency will be the death of democracy.

Except the dutch weren't complacent. They had a record turnout. 80% or so.

It suggests the opposite - there is more people taking part in politics then ever before. And in such an environment, the right failed pretty miserably.

	Quote:	J2488
	Except the dutch weren't complacent. They had a record turnout. 80% or so. It suggests the opposite - there is more people taking part in politics then ever before. And in such an environment, the right failed pretty miserably.

They won 20 seats in a European national assembly.

If you can't see how disturbing that is, there's little point discussing this with you.

[J2488]

	Quote:
	Would you be so relaxed about it if the BNP won 20 seats in the House of Commons? Like I said, I see nothing to celebrate here, but I'm delighted that other people can find some joy in a far-right party having 20 seats in a European national assembly.

The House of commons is a different legislature, so you cant compare like for like.

To be honest, If the BNP won 20 seats in the HoC, it would quickly become clear they were clueless and incompetent for anything other than soundbites. They would quickly become irrelevant (more so than today) and their saga would be over once and for all.

For the BNP and for the PVV, the worst thing that could happen is if they actually got in to power. Look across the pond to see proof of that.

Fact of the matter is, there are a minority of people who hold views that align to that of the PVV and the BNP and other political joke parties. But, aiming to exclude them entirely causes more problems, because they then rightfully feel ignored. This builds resentment and malice, until it explodes and they elect a blonde sex-pest. They shouldn't be excluded entirely - they do represent people, even if those people are not very smart. They must be part of the legislature. Their defeat will not come in the shape of them being entirely excluded, but of being included and irrelevant.

[J2488]

	Quote:
	They won 20 seats in a European national assembly. If you can't see how disturbing that is, there's little point discussing this with you.

Im not saying it isn't disturbing.

im saying that if, in the political environment of the last 4 years, the best they can muster is 13%, they cannot claim to be representing the majority of people. They cant even claim to represent the most people.

Thats my point - they paint themselves as champions of the people, the voice of the people, yet they failed to actually convince enough people that they represent them. This is the victory. Yes, it is worrying that they have 20 seats, but it is even more encouraging that they dont have 76.

They represent a subsect of people who still should have their voices heard, if for no other reason than that is how democracy works. But those people have been sent a firm message that their views are not representative of the broader dutch people.

This of it this way: We are celebrating that the cancer is benign, and not malignant.

The cancer is still there, so there is still a fight of course, and still cause for concern, but this is the biggest indication yet that this disease can be beaten.

	Quote:
	Would you be so relaxed about it if the BNP won 20 seats in the House of Commons? Like I said, I see nothing to celebrate here, but I'm delighted that other people can find some joy in a far-right party having 20 seats in a European national assembly.

Certainly not. But PVV are closer to UKIP* than the BNP and UKIP got pretty much the same share of votes in the UK as PVV in the Netherlands.

Do I like it? No. But they clearly failed to make the breakthrough they were at one point threatening and for yesterday (and today) I'll celebrate that.

*Compare UKIP and PVV policies - it's hard to tell the difference apart from one set being written in Dutch

[J2488]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Still missing the bigger picture. Rutte had to step into Wilders' territory in order to avoid humiliation. Wilders has changed the debate and got everyone talking about what he wants to have discussed. But it's fine. Ignore the reality. The rest of Europe is. Watch what happens next.

So, a politician managed to get a political issue discussed by the political establishment?

What a crushing blow for the political establishment.