The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	amogles
	ah. I thought you were going to say Romania (who to be fair have been reasonably well behaved at least as far as I my knowledge of history goes)

Their crimes certainly impale into insignificance compared to those of their neighbours.

	Quote:	lewton
	I can't wait to see you go.

Most Europeans feel the same about your lot - except you don't seem to want to take the hint.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The problem is that this isn't the objective of most of the people who make up the member countries of the EU. The very people who the EU are supposed to serve.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is. It is exactly what is stated in the treaties that the member states are committed to, it what the majority of voters voted for in parliamentary elections - parties that support a more integrated EU, it's why they have Junker as head of the commission and until the people actually vote for something different it is how it will remain.

This is progressing, regardless of how you feel about it. Even the neutral members such as Sweden, Finland and Ireland are participating, take a look at the Nordic Battle Group. And I seem to remember reading somewhere, that Irish troops were conducting training exercise with the Finish army along the Russian border this winter.

[lewton]

	Quote:
	Most Europeans feel the same about your lot - except you don't seem to want to take the hint.

Such a fine insult, unfortunately it missed the target because I too want my country to leave the EU and of course the € (but remain in the Single Market as a member of the EEA).

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is. It is exactly what is stated in the treaties that the member states are committed to, it what the majority of voters voted for in parliamentary elections - parties that support a more integrated EU, it's why they have Junker as head of the commission and until the people actually vote for something different it is how it will remain. This is progressing, regardless of how you feel about it. Even the neutral members such as Sweden, Finland and Ireland are participating, take a look at the Nordic Battle Group. And I seem to remember reading somewhere, that Irish troops were conducting training exercise with the Finish army along the Russian border this winter.

Erm, people don't get to vote, and every time a closer union is put to vote it gets rejected. See how France and the Netherlands rejected the European Constitution. So much so that they had to go away and redress it as the Treaty of Lisbon only for your lot to go and reject it first time out.

In fact it was only Ireland that had a referendum on that, everyone else slid it in through the back door. And note how no one will get to vote on whether or not to have a European Army. One day it will just be there. This is not good.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	Source Investors highlighted the significant pick-up in so-called core inflation, which excludes volatile prices such as food and fuel. That measure jumped to 2% in February from 1.6% in January and was well above forecasts of 1.8%.

This is very good news, as the only debts can be paid down is via inflation.
Interest rates need to rise substantially, which I also see as good news. People should not value money at close to zero.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Erm, people don't get to vote, and every time a closer union is put to vote it gets rejected. See how France and the Netherlands rejected the European Constitution. So much so that they had to go away and redress it as the Treaty of Lisbon only for your lot to go and reject it first time out. In fact it was only Ireland that had a referendum on that, everyone else slid it in through the back door. And note how no one will get to vote on whether or not to have a European Army. One day it will just be there. This is not good.

So you are unable to provide any backing for your statement "The problem is that this isn't the objective of most of the people who make up the member countries of the EU."?

	Quote:	marton
	So you are unable to provide any backing for your statement "The problem is that this isn't the objective of most of the people who make up the member countries of the EU."?

The only way to unequivocally prove it would be to have a referendum. But the EU won't allow that to happen because they're terrified of them.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The only way to unequivocally prove it would be to have a referendum. But the EU won't allow that to happen because they're terrified of them.

So you agree your statement had no backing

	Quote:	marton
	So you agree your statement had no backing

Can you prove it's not true?

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Can you prove it's not true?

If you cannot prove it is true then why would I bother, it was your statement not mine

She was so right then- really worth a listen:

https://www.facebook.com/john.rogan....7889826360744/

[marton]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	This is very good news, as the only debts can be paid down is via inflation. Interest rates need to rise substantially, which I also see as good news. People should not value money at close to zero.

Also good news as the value of the £ is rising....

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The only way to unequivocally prove it would be to have a referendum. But the EU won't allow that to happen because they're terrified of them.

Stop digging!!!! The EU has no say in such matters, as you have already seen from BREXIT, it is up to each individual member state to decide on such issues. And clearly national politicians do not sense the need for such a decision at this time.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is. It is exactly what is stated in the treaties that the member states are committed to, it what the majority of voters voted for in parliamentary elections - parties that support a more integrated EU, it's why they have Junker as head of the commission and until the people actually vote for something different it is how it will remain.

It's not my experience that most "ordinary citizens" of the EU want to be part of a formal supranational federation. I see plenty of affection for Europe (which I share), but very little love for the European Union.

I sense that mainland Europe, and especially nations that suffered most during the world wars, don't want the uncertainty that leaving the EU might mean, but have no desire whatever to lose their self-identity, and are very wary of the EU ideologues.

You are right that the Treaty of Rome refers to "ever closer union", but this is a very woolly phrase. When we joined the EEC, it was a group of 6 prosperous countries -- all NW Europe apart from Italy. All with healthy GDP, and very little migration. It was a free-trade bloc that promised much less admin and documentation when we wanted to go on holiday.

I was happy with that arrangement, as were most people. I voted Yes in 1975. A bit later on, and suddenly there's an overarching parliament and superior courts and a common currency and an anthem and flag and 28 members of the organisation, many of them relatively poor. Naturally, they want to take advantage of freedom of movement.

In short, it's a totally different organisation from the one we joined, yet until last year, we were never asked whether we wanted this superstate/federation arrangement. If you're saying that Euro-elections were an opportunity to show support for this marvellous project, I'd remind you that turnout barely reaches 35% in the UK, and most of those seem to be UKIP voters, who actively wanted to leave the thing.

Personally I’d have happily stayed in the EU if we’d stayed close to the original deal we thought we were getting -- free trade and freedom of movement within a small bloc of similar-size economies. That worked pretty well. This massive federation of wildly diverse economies is a non-starter for me and many others, as we saw last June.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	In fact it was only Ireland that had a referendum on that, everyone else slid it in through the back door. And note how no one will get to vote on whether or not to have a European Army. One day it will just be there. This is not good.

If we were to follow you're logic, then we could conclude the parliament, any parliament has no authority to make decisions on behalf of their states. Or is it only the decisions you don't like that need to be to a vote/referendum or whatever???

In the case of France and Denmark, they have requirements for referenda, but their governments have more flexibility.

Ireland is unique because the people through their constitution have completely reserved the decision making power to themselves. The government is free to negotiate and renegotiate if necessary, but only the people can make the decision. And when the returning officer signs off on the result of a referendum, it is law and neither the government, parliament nor the president have a role in it.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	If we were to follow you're logic, then we could conclude the parliament, any parliament has no authority to make decisions on behalf of their states. Or is it only the decisions you don't like that need to be to a vote/referendum or whatever???

Certain decisions that impact on the sovereignty of a nation shouldn't be allowed to be made by parliament alone.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Stop digging!!!! The EU has no say in such matters, as you have already seen from BREXIT, it is up to each individual member state to decide on such issues. And clearly national politicians do not sense the need for such a decision at this time.

I was not referring to In/Out referendums, rather referendums concerning closer political union.

	Quote:	marton
	If you cannot prove it is true then why would I bother, it was your statement not mine

History shows that I'm right. There is nothing to prove that this situation has changed since this ratification process was held.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Certain decisions that impact on the sovereignty of a nation shouldn't be allowed to be made by parliament alone. I was not referring to In/Out referendums, rather referendums concerning closer political union. History shows that I'm right. There is nothing to prove that this situation has changed since this ratification process was held.

From your link
Aims of the Union; economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among member states.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Erm, people don't get to vote, and every time a closer union is put to vote it gets rejected.

When people vote and reject eurosceptic parties, I think you'll find they are getting to vote. Just because the UK is eurosceptic, doesn't mean the rest of Europe is - I would have thought you might be one of the first to argue that the British are 'different'.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Can you prove it's not true?

By that logic I can claim the opposite that the majority support greater integration in Europe and it's up to you to disprove it - which according to you cannot be done because apparently no one gets to express their opinion on it.

Basically we can all make up facts and demand that others disprove them, but that's not how logic works, I'm afraid.

	Quote:	marton
	From your link Aims of the Union; economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among member states.

Which was rejected in France and Holland.

	Quote:	Aeneas
	When people vote and reject eurosceptic parties, I think you'll find they are getting to vote. Just because the UK is eurosceptic, doesn't mean the rest of Europe is - I would have thought you might be one of the first to argue that the British are 'different'. By that logic I can claim the opposite that the majority support greater integration in Europe and it's up to you to disprove it - which according to you cannot be done because apparently no one gets to express their opinion on it. Basically we can all make up facts and demand that others disprove them, but that's not how logic works, I'm afraid.

Greater integration has already been rejected when put to vote, see above.

You can't compare electing for parties in national elections to that of a direct vote in referendums. Just because people vote for pro European parties that doesn't translate to pro-European. Case in point, Conservatives won the last election and in the main were pro-EU. However people still voted to leave the EU.