The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	What is shocking for me is the fact that as a UK citizen you need special approval and criteria met to be able to bring your family???? Excuse me but this looks outrageous even for someone who has absolutely nothing to do with whatever situation. It can't be.

There is also the somewhat Alice in Wonderland situation that if you are a UK citizen but want to bring your non-UK wife with you then she has to buy comprehensive health insurance in the UK.
This is despite the fact that as an EEA citizen under current rules my wife is entitled to use the NHS.

The situation is "Alice in Wonderland" because the word comprehensive is not defined anywhere? There have been several courts cases on this but no clear ruling or precedent.

Added complexity is that we are both over retirement age and there is no guarantee a UK insurance company would offer her a policy and certainly they would not cover pre-existing conditions.

There is a possibility she could remain covered by the Swiss Krankenkasse insurance under the EU scheme for retired people but then she would have to change to a different company .

More details here.

The simplest solution would be for the NHS to offer suitable policies but there seems to be no interest to do this.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Spain can do what they want post Brexit. However if they were to close the border then it'd reveal how petty minded they are. Who are they going to harm by doing this? The UK? Of course not. The only people who'd feel the effects would be the Gibraltarians who Spain want to rule. This would be the behaviour of a bully.

Except they can't, Spain will still be in the EEA. Subject to the negotiation results the'll actually have no choice but close the border.

Btw you can only be the bully if you're stronger. Thanks for confirming that the UK is in the clearly weaker position.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	* I could be talking utter pants but that's the snippets I picked up from threads on the subject..

You're not. My mate went through the same to bring his Japanese wife to the UK after he'd spent 5yrs working there. Took them 6mths to get permission for her to follow him over to the UK.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Except they can't, Spain will still be in the EEA. Subject to the negotiation results the'll actually have no choice but close the border. Btw you can only be the bully if you're stronger. Thanks for confirming that the UK is in the clearly weaker position.

By your logic - thanks for confirming the EU is a bully.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Except they can't, Spain will still be in the EEA. Subject to the negotiation results the'll actually have no choice but close the border. Btw you can only be the bully if you're stronger. Thanks for confirming that the UK is in the clearly weaker position.

Well Spain is only in the EEA to the same extent the UK was/is, by virtue of it's membership of the EU. Not that it is relevant.

Yes if the UK end up with a hard exit, then there will have to be hard borders for both NI and Gibraltar.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	By your logic - thanks for confirming the EU is a bully.

The UK decides to exit the EU and some how in your mind when the EU takes them at their word and follows through on it, they are the bullies! Bullying seems to have a completely different definition in your world.

	Quote:	jim2007
	the uk decides to exit the eu and some how in your mind when the eu takes them at their word and follows through on it, they are the bullies! Bullying seems to have a completely different definition in your world.

	Quote:	loz1983
	by your logic - thanks for confirming the eu is a bully.

hth.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	The simplest solution would be for the NHS to offer suitable policies but there seems to be no interest to do this.

I was not paying great attention to it at the time when I was reading it, but apparently there is also some kind of loophole where by if a UK citizen moves first to Ireland for a year, has his partner join him under EU reunification rules and then moves to the UK, the requirement is also magiced away as is the minimum income requirements!

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	By your logic - thanks for confirming the EU is a bully.

Stop dreaming, there's no such confirmation in my words.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Since when were the opinions of one retired MP "sabre rattling"?

When the Defense Secretary says the UK would "go all the way" that is sabre rattling indeed. Completely unprovoked sabre rattling that is.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Spain can do what they want post Brexit. However if they were to close the border then it'd reveal how petty minded they are. Who are they going to harm by doing this? The UK? Of course not. The only people who'd feel the effects would be the Gibraltarians who Spain want to rule. This would be the behaviour of a bully.

What exactly do you mean by "close the border"?

	Quote:
	The current situation is; Although it is part of the EU, Gibraltar is outside the customs union and VAT area ; it does not form part of the Schengen Area. As a separate jurisdiction to the UK, Gibraltar's government and parliament are responsible for the transposition of EU law into local law. Like the UK, Gibraltar does not form part of the Schengen Area and, as a result, the border between Spain and Gibraltar is an external Schengen border through which Spain is legally obliged to perform full entrance and exit controls.

So what will change in your view?

Leaving the EU will generate a lot of work for Gibraltar's government and Parliament to change their laws; as mentioned earlier, best solution would be for Gib. to join the EU like Malta?

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	marton
	Leaving the EU will generate a lot of work for Gibraltar's government and Parliament to change their laws; as mentioned earlier, best solution would be for Gib. to join the EU like Malta?

Do you know what the situation would be with the other islands which are part of the UK but not part of it, if you know what I mean. For example, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

I know at least the IOM has its own governance but not sure if this would have any effect when it comes to the departure from the EU.

[McTAVGE]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Do you know what the situation would be with the other islands which are part of the UK but not part of it, if you know what I mean. For example, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands? I know at least the IOM has its own governance but not sure if this would have any effect when it comes to the departure from the EU.

As the last region in Europe to use caning in public as a punishment, the Isle of Man will undoubtedly reintroduce it as soon as it can!

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Do you know what the situation would be with the other islands which are part of the UK but not part of it, if you know what I mean. For example, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

Don't know about Tinwald, but the Channel Islands' Parliament has posted reems of documents regarding Brexit, which is understandable seeing as they're a tax haven.

http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/pag...x?query=brexit

The British Embassy in Madrid is refering expats to this...

https://www.planforbritain.gov.uk/in...on-leaving-eu/

...and Simon Manley posted a video on his twitter feed on 30 March.

https://twitter.com/SimonManleyFCO?r...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[lewton]

	Quote:	marton
	What exactly do you mean by "close the border"? So what will change in your view? Leaving the EU will generate a lot of work for Gibraltar's government and Parliament to change their laws; as mentioned earlier, best solution would be for Gib. to join the EU like Malta?

I mean not allow anything or anyone go through.

[marton]

	Quote:	lewton
	I mean not allow anything or anyone go through.

I believe such an action of closing EU external borders would be contrary to EU laws or as a minimum would require EU approval/agreement?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	lewton
	I mean not allow anything or anyone go through.

If you have the time and the inclination to wade through all this, there was a stand off in 2013 that springs to mind. I was planning a trip to Gibraltar at the time, and changed to Crete because of this.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24954881

http://news.sky.com/story/gibraltar-...sists-10427833

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-1086_en.htm

[lewton]

	Quote:	marton
	I believe such an action of closing EU external borders would be contrary to EU laws or as a minimum would require EU approval/agreement?

I am not sure if it requires EU approval, but apparently the EU has decided not to stand on Spain's way.

[Odile]

Sharing from a private member of a pro Euro site for comments - I personally know little about Cyprus and its particular situation:

Cyprus: Another problem for Brexit

The ‘European Council (Art. 50) (29 April 2017) - Draft guidelines following the United Kingdom's notification under Article 50 TEU’ states:

‘The Union should agree with the United Kingdom on arrangements as regards the Sovereign Base Areas of the United Kingdom in Cyprus and recognise in that respect bilateral agreements and arrangements between the Republic of Cyprus and the United Kingdom which are compatible with EU law, in particular as regards the situation of those EU citizens resident or working in the Sovereign Base Areas.’



The Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) were created as a result of the London and Zürich Agreements in 1959 and came into effect in 1960. Appendix O to the 1960 treaty with Cyprus indicates that the British government intended:

‘Not to create customs posts or other frontier barriers between the Sovereign Base Areas and the Republic.’

Because post Brexit the UK will be outside the EU and the EU requires customs and frontier posts on it’s borders, this creates an ambiguity with what should happen over the SBAs.

One of the SBAs (Dhekelia) sits on the border between the Republic of Cyprus and Northern Cyprus, which is legally an occupied territory but is de jure part of the EU by virtue of de jure being part of the Republic of Cyprus. This adds complexity in that currently the UK government administrate that border on behalf of the Republic of Cyprus with a frontier and customs post. Since that would no longer be an EU customs post it’s ambiguous what would happen there. The border was only partially open before Cyprus joined the EU so there is no historical precedent to determine what should happen.

Many UK citizens in Northern Cyprus are pro-Brexit, whereas many in the Republic of Cyprus are strongly anti-Brexit. Though the EU statement focuses ‘in particular as regards the situation of those EU citizens resident or working in the Sovereign Base Areas’ the border issues should not be underestimated.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Do you know what the situation would be with the other islands which are part of the UK but not part of it, if you know what I mean. For example, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands? I know at least the IOM has its own governance but not sure if this would have any effect when it comes to the departure from the EU.

Jersey is not in the EU & never has been, IOM has s special relationship but is not a member either.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Odile
	The UK can't pick and choose- ask for borders to be closed but want Gib to remain opened. Surely. And yes, Howard did hint about war- he didn't use the word as such, but the message was very clear 'Mrs Thatcher went to war over the Falklands, and Mrs May would do it again for Gibraltar'. Such sabre rattling at this stage is so stupid, dangerous and irresponsible. , Well done Michael Howard! I see you haven't changed a bit since the days you were leader of the Tory Party; you're still the same smug, useless, self-satisfied, obnoxious little wart that we used to hate back in 2003/5. Here's your crowning achievement - to single-handedly stuff the Union in one ill-considered, pompous and pretentious statement. For those who missed it, today Mikey reminded everyone that back in the days of Maggie we went to war against a bunch of Dagoes (the Argentines) trying to take away a prized British possession (the Falklands). Now another bunch of Dagoes (the Spanish) want to prize Gibraltar away from us, and since Maggie May is just as much the Iron Lady as her predecessor, THIS MEANS WAR! Huzzah! Unfortunately, the Spanish are not as stupid as Mikey believes; they immediately countered with the news that they will drop their opposition to Scotland joining the EU when it leaves the UK, thereby at a single stroke of Mikey's pen vastly increasing the likelihood of Nicola winning her Referendum. Up till today, having to leave the EU was the only serious obstacle in the path of a viable independent Scotland. Did Mikey and his idiot friends not stop to consider that the Spanish have been waiting centuries for an opportunity like this, only to have it handed to them on a plate by the Brexit dimwits? As for the Gibraltarians, who voted 98% to stay in the EU, I'm sorry you've been stuffed too, but at least your wishes are easily achieved with dual nationality. After all, who in their right mind would want to stay in a union with Little England after this debacle is all over? How in hell would we go to war against Spain anyway? Send our rusty rowing boats to invade Torremolinos and Benidorm, perhaps? Maybe they expect the million-odd geriatric expats there to put down their G&Ts and rise up against their evil overlords? There's only one loser in all this; the English people, one of which I would very much like not to be. There are no words to express the depth of contempt in which I hold those of my countrymen who voted blindly to bring disaster down on themselves, egged on by a cabal of unpatriotic swine whose only desire is more power for themselves and screw the rest of the population. You should have done it yesterday, Mikey; at least on April 1st it would have made sense.'

it's very easy to promise that if somebody else does A you will do B as long as you don't actually believe they will do A.

That is until somebody actually does A and then you're screwed.

That's exactly what caused WW2, and you're rubbing your hands with glee at the prospect of bad things happening to others in the same vein.

Back when the Scottish referendum was on, Spain said clearly that they would not recognise an independent Scotland or support their EU accession - because they were running scared that the likes of Catalonia and Euskal Herrera (see how I used the indigenous terminology) would be jumping on the bandwagon.

If Spain has turned around, then that would indicate that either they believe it won't happen anyway, or that they think they can prevent the domino effect.