The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	marton
	Maybe we should be relieved that we are leaving Quote: Europe is no longer the center of democracy and human rights but it is one of Nazism and oppression, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said, accusing European leaders of being surrounded by far-right politicians. Source

Well he would, wouldn't he?!

[Odile]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	I don't think people were. Who takes any notice of what politicians promise? Nobody cares what they have to say. We all know they lie all the time. There were many reasons for voting leave, but I don't think the bilge spouted by the likes of Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage had much to do with it. I'm not saying all the reasons were necessarily rational, but I'd be surprised if more than a handful of leave voters took those clowns at their word.

Next you are going to tell me that no-one was swayed by the xenophobic front pages of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun during the lead up to the vote, day in, day out. Perhaps you have not seen them or kept up with the British Press- in which case, you should have a look perhaps.

[pdofr]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	That neglect has led generations of people to believe that their vote doesn't matter, and that's why you get people disengaging from the political system and seeing it as a matter decided by 'elites'. What I heard from people who voted Leave was that it was the first time in their life where they felt their vote was equal to everyone else, so they voted for change rather than more of the same.

I was back in Yorkshire the weekend after the 1997 General Election that brought New Labour to power.

I'd never seen the local pub quite like it, the majority were in a party mood. 18 years of Conservative rule where people had felt their vote didn't count had been overturned.

It seems that 19 years on, the same feeling was back.

A couple of short videos:

The Labour supporters backing Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent heartland

The reasons for Trump were also the reasons for Brexit

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	Maybe we should be relieved that we are leaving Source

Sultan Erdogan - never fails to deliver. He's cute.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	Next you are going to tell me that no-one was swayed by the xenophobic front pages of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun during the lead up to the vote, day in, day out. Perhaps you have not seen them or kept up with the British Press- in which case, you should have a look perhaps.

Why would I want to look at any of that garbage?

And who - in 2017 - reads newspapers any more anyway?

[baboon]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Why would I want to look at any of that garbage? And who - in 2017 - reads newspapers any more anyway?

About 8 million sold copies, therefore some 15 million readers. Total reach across all media estimated at 94% of GB adults. So quite a lot of people actually.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Odile
	Next you are going to tell me that no-one was swayed by the xenophobic front pages of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun during the lead up to the vote, day in, day out. Perhaps you have not seen them or kept up with the British Press- in which case, you should have a look perhaps.

I don't think anyone was swayed by them. By which I mean that people who read the Mail already are "Daily Mail readers" with Daily Mail opinions. They read these papers because they tell them what they want to hear and what they already believe. No different from "Guardian readers" reading the Graun for the stories and opinion pieces about how terrible everything is in the UK these days. Most people read the papers that will confirm pre-existing prejudices, whether they're on the left or the right, Remain or Leave.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	baboon
	About 8 million sold copies, therefore some 15 million readers. Total reach across all media estimated at 94% of GB adults. So quite a lot of people actually.

94% of UK adults are Sun, Mail and Express readers?

Then how come only 52% of them voted Leave?

Those headlines couldn't have been as persuasive as some people seem to imagine!

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	frickfrack
	Fair enough. I would imagine that some people felt a bit of regret due to misinformation and new realizations that came to light after the vote was final. If this is the case, then you could argue that people were misinformed or had a lack of information before making the vote.

People will believe the information they apriori want to find.

You cannot any longer, really, vote and then blame somebody else for not doing the fact-checking for you. It is a good lesson in accountability. And democracy, I'd say. If people desire it, they will do the homework figuring out the consequences of their votes, nobody will do it for them. And media especially will not.

	Quote:
	It's just hard for me to believe this is the case with so many different media outlets and sources coming at this thing from every angle.

Nothing was covered from every angle. I do not think it is a purpose of modern media. It is not their mission. They deliver what people expect them to deliver, to assure their sales.

If EU (and probably not ironically) was the only reliable source - it steps up their credibility, me thinks. Too late for the UK (and other minions, tbh).

These situations are not about data and access to it. It is all about timing. Democracy is an interesting concept: mostly about when peole act. Not how they vote.

I do not think any parts of the process are gullible or dumb, at all.

[McTAVGE]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	I don't think anyone was swayed by them. By which I mean that people who read the Mail already are "Daily Mail readers" with Daily Mail opinions. They read these papers because they tell them what they want to hear and what they already believe. No different from "Guardian readers" reading the Graun for the stories and opinion pieces about how terrible everything is in the UK these days. Most people read the papers that will confirm pre-existing prejudices, whether they're on the left or the right, Remain or Leave.

True, to some extent, although some of us try and read both, if only to know better the opposite side's views. Although I must confess that if I can browse through the Torygraph without too much brain injury, I cannot lower myself to touch the Daily Fascist, it burns!

[Slaphead]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	94% of UK adults are Sun, Mail and Express readers? Then how come only 52% of them voted Leave? Those headlines couldn't have been as persuasive as some people seem to imagine!

The 52% are the people who actually take these papers seriously. For the rest of us they're comics that give us a good laugh. Although I'd be the first to say that one should not mock the afflicted, it's difficult not to when reading the comments sections of these papers.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	I don't think anyone was swayed by them. By which I mean that people who read the Mail already are "Daily Mail readers" with Daily Mail opinions. They read these papers because they tell them what they want to hear and what they already believe. No different from "Guardian readers" reading the Graun for the stories and opinion pieces about how terrible everything is in the UK these days. Most people read the papers that will confirm pre-existing prejudices, whether they're on the left or the right, Remain or Leave.

I was just about to post the same thing... papers rarely change peoples minds, they simply support and inflame pre-existing bias and opinions, and influence them to further heights with emotive or sensationalist articles.

The Daily Mail and The Guardian are two perfect examples of opposite ends of the right and left spectrums.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	94% of UK adults are Sun, Mail and Express readers? Then how come only 52% of them voted Leave? Those headlines couldn't have been as persuasive as some people seem to imagine!

"Newspapers". All, not just those 3. Plus total reach includes their internet presence.

Those 3 together have a circulation of about 4 million and a readership of about 8 million. Something like 80% Brexit (near 100% for the Mail and Express)

What's not to like about the Mail? People reckon it's being run by Hitler when more likely than not it's Oxbridge educated hacks who don't even believe what they write, having the time of their lives trolling the nation.

This is pure gold. Master trolling.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...adies-Day.html

[pdofr]

	Quote:	Slaphead
	The 52% are the people who actually take these papers seriously. For the rest of us they're comics that give us a good laugh.

Judging by the number of times I see Daily Mail articles linked to from online forums, quite a lot of folks do read it online purely for the laugh.

The trouble with that is it quickly degenerates into having a laugh "at the other half", which is divisive in nature.

And right on cue, Loz1983 supplies a link to a Daliy Fail article.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Slaphead
	The 52% are the people who actually take these papers seriously. For the rest of us they're comics that give us a good laugh. Although I'd be the first to say that one should not mock the afflicted, it's difficult not to when reading the comments sections of these papers.

I honestly reckon the most read newspaper in the UK is The Metro, which is also surprisingly neutral in political articles, but we'll never have the figures on it's readership because it's free. In the same manner, I reckon Blic and 20 Minuten have a bigger readership than any other newspaper in Switzerland.

[Swisstree]

	Quote:	Slaphead
	The 52% are the people who actually take these papers seriously. For the rest of us they're comics that give us a good laugh. Although I'd be the first to say that one should not mock the afflicted, it's difficult not to when reading the comments sections of these papers.

The Daily Mail this morning covered the recently discovered Sylvia Plath's letters in which she wrote about her complex relationship with Hughes.

Comments from the afflicted public:

Self-control isn't a major component of creativity because it's limiting. Most poetry is love of words expressing the love or hate that a person feels in their spirit or soul. Being able to write poetry is a gift and an amazing number of people who have mental illness can write poetry and are often very intelligent. Pedantic poetry is unpleasant, but true poetry takes you on a magical journey.


And another:

Hughes was a goat. To her eternal credit, Plath spared her children, unlike his mistress who took their little girl with her. Never understood how Seamus Heaney was a friend to Hughes. Good poetry only stands for so much.

Many who read the papers take the piddle out of them and troll, but to have such sweeping statements about mocking the afflicted is really insulting. You find what you want to find in this world and more so if you come at it with prejudice firmly in place.

[baboon]

	Quote:	pdofr
	Judging by the number of times I see Daily Mail articles linked to from online forums, quite a lot of folks do read it online purely for the laugh.

Not just the Fail. I know from my preferred sources in the football world all the main papers trawl forums looking for stories.

We've even managed to plant fake stories in the past (think that was to the Fail btw).

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	"Hughes was a goat".

Lol. Hahahahah...

While I agree with what you wrote about that not-really-intended-to-be-a-literary-interpretation article, still - I have read so many credited, highly praised, million times quoted and even more times published aspiring geniuses in the academia, who come with similarly banal and simplistic quibs. Just put in a wordier and more selfimportant format.

It is not the vehicle that matters at the end, it is the quality and authenticity of the actual message (not even the author's), that matters.

As long as people actually do read poetry and are willing to think about it...interpret. It is far from trendy and it is work. I love when tabloids dig in poetry, even if it is silly. There are readers who will get inspired and dig deeper. Crap article or dubious media source is just a start, and often not even better than credible sources or acclaimed authors.

We could have gotten "Hughes is a middle class priviledged white male goat" instead, btw. (I don't think he was). So, there is a lot of hope!

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	What's not to like about the Mail? People reckon it's being run by Hitler when more likely than not it's Oxbridge educated hacks who don't even believe what they write, having the time of their lives trolling the nation. This is pure gold. Master trolling. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...adies-Day.html

Dear God. English women of that ilk really are the pits. *shudders*