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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #9021  
Old 03.06.2017, 17:59
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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I don´t get your point. Why should Brits in rural France not be able to sell their property ? If other Brits are "too scared" to buy because of Brexit one could always sell to a French, German, Spanish, ... buyer.
In case they are sitting on a piece of property in rural France which no one is interested in - well, that doesn´t have anything to do with Brexit, but with the location of the property.
I think the point is also people may be considering returning to the U.K. (what with Brexit and the weakened pound) and may need to sell in France or wherever to finance a home in the U.K.
With the pound weaker against EUR and CHF, selling here means you can buy more for your money at the moment in the U.K., providing of course you can find a buyer for your property on the continent.

Last edited by koblenz; 03.06.2017 at 18:08. Reason: add
  #9022  
Old 03.06.2017, 18:13
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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See how it goes - I know some here find the whole thing hilarious- we don't, ta.

Jim I know many Britis in rural France who already find it impossible to sell their property, at any price- as Brits are already too scared of possible consequences post Brexit. It has been calculated that the effect of 1000s upon 1000s of British retirees from EU- would cost a massive amount of money and put massive added pressure to NHS, social housing and social payments.
Property can always be sold at 'any price', start an auction at 1 euro it will sell.
They won't be entitled to anything for at least 6 months & will likely be at the very end of the queue for social housing especially as they have made themselves voluntary homeless.
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  #9023  
Old 03.06.2017, 18:15
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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They won't be entitled to anything for at least 6 months
What won't they be entitled to for the first 6 months at least?
  #9024  
Old 03.06.2017, 18:20
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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What won't they be entitled to for the first 6 months at least?
Unless you have been living for 6 months in the UK, they will consider you a visitor. Same for a driving UK license
  #9025  
Old 03.06.2017, 18:23
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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Unless you have been living for 6 months in the UK, they will consider you a visitor. Same for a driving UK license
Even with a U.K. passport?
  #9026  
Old 03.06.2017, 18:24
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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Even with a U.K. passport?
Sure, it's about residence, nothing to do with citizenship.
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  #9027  
Old 03.06.2017, 19:29
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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Even with a U.K. passport?
Passports don't count for much in the British Isles. Both Ireland and the UK have provisions in their legislation to treat each others citizens as if they were all locals by declaring each other not to be a foreigner!, so it all comes down to how long you are actually resident in the locality, normally for most things it is six months regardless of what passport you hold (UK or Irish).
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  #9028  
Old 03.06.2017, 19:44
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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I don´t get your point. Why should Brits in rural France not be able to sell their property ? If other Brits are "too scared" to buy because of Brexit one could always sell to a French, German, Spanish, ... buyer.
Perhaps you didn't read my post- it is due to Brexit because they are areas where the French or Spanish do not buy - this is how they were able to snap great properties for a low price, but then had to spend lots for renovations - but now the low exchange rate, worry about pension no longer indexed and health care no longer reciprocal, post Brexit - etc- means they won't be able to stay- and new Britis retirees won't be coming either.

Yes, Germans or Swiss may buy- but they will also have studied the market and realise what is going on, and make ridiculously low offers.

As for being at bottom of queue for housing in the UK- I can imagine that there might be an uproar if 1000s of elderly British returnees are sleeping rough... and have no access to healthcare. The 6 months rule is easy to by-pass via relatives in such cases.

None of this apply to us (well apart from exchange rateand pension lock) thank goodness. We knew there might be trouble ahead and made sure we planned accordingly. As daughters and grandchildren are in UK- and we still have property there- we would be fine.

Mind you, there is no way we could afford to buy a decent place near either daughters- for sure. An old friend of ours had great difficulty selling his place in France, even before Brexit talks- and there is no way they would have been able to buy in Ealing- where the house they sold for 350 is now worth 2 million. They were looking at Lincolnshire as one of the few places they could afford to return- in a much much smaller place (sadly he met his demise beforehand).
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  #9029  
Old 03.06.2017, 22:36
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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For Britons who work in Switzerland but live in France or Germany, I think it will be the end of the road.

Britons will no longer be "Europeans", so they cannot be frontaliers.

Options, IMHO, either take a European nationality or move to Switzerland.

Added later: This opinion may be wrong. It may still be doable. Expert opinion needed...
Isn't that going to be a double problem? 1) living in France 2) working in CH as a frontalier.
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  #9030  
Old 03.06.2017, 22:55
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

Of course they can Frank Zappa. It just depends on your status in France, Germany, Italy, etc. If you have a permanent residence card in any of these and live in a border zone area you can still have a G permit.

"Third-country nationals will only be given a cross-border commuter G-permit, if they have a permanent residence permit in a neighboring country. They also need to have had their residence in the neighboring country’s border zone for at least six months and fulfill the labor market requirements. G-permits are usually valid for one year, and are limited to the border zone of the issuing canton. Third-country border commuters require permission to change jobs or occupations."

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...willigung.html

The main problem will be whether or not your Swiss employer has to reapply for a permit for you via the non-EU hiring criteria.
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  #9031  
Old 04.06.2017, 00:52
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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Britons will no longer be "Europeans", so they cannot be frontaliers.
That's a nonsequitur.

For frontaliers into Switzerland nationality is irrelevant, residence is key. How UK nationals get (the right to or permit for) residence is a different question.

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I have asked the OP which permit they have as I think anyone with a C-permit is not really going to be affected by Brexit with regard to their immigration status here.
That would be my expectation as well.
It's a given, actually. WRT FMOP all rights gained under the Bilaterale by individuals persist beyond the treaty's effectiveness. AFAIK C permit extension is a right.

Last edited by Urs Max; 04.06.2017 at 01:12. Reason: added "under the Bilaterale"
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  #9032  
Old 04.06.2017, 00:55
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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"Third-country nationals will only be given a cross-border commuter G-permit, if they have a permanent residence permit in a neighboring country. They also need to have had their residence in the neighboring country’s border zone for at least six months and fulfill the labor market requirements. G-permits are usually valid for one year, and are limited to the border zone of the issuing canton. Third-country border commuters require permission to change jobs or occupations."
Yes but this only applies to UK citizens who have lived in France for at least five years and have obtained a permanent residence permit. And of course we still don't know who exactly UK citizens will be treated in the EU after BREXIT.... I would expect that any UK citizen who has a permanent residence permit for any EU country will be OK. But with the UK hell bent on a hard exit who can say.
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  #9033  
Old 04.06.2017, 01:16
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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It's a given, actually. WRT FMOP all rights gained by individuals persist beyond the treaty's effectiveness. AFAIK C permit extension is a right.
WRT - sorry I'm not familiar one?

And it is highly questionable if the Vienna Convention on the law of treaties applies to EU treaties as they are not treaties between nations as envisioned by the convention! If fact the only legal opinions I have seen that take a positive view are from the UK....

Indeed when I to took European law 30 years ago, it was pointed out by some of the Profs. that it is unlikely that the Vienna Convention applies to such treaties, because they are treaties between the peoples of nations and not between nations. The fact that Ireland, Denmark and France have a requirement for the citizens to approve the treaties makes it difficult to argue otherwise in court.

But that said, I still expect that permanent residents will be OK.
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  #9034  
Old 04.06.2017, 16:45
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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Perhaps you didn't read my post- it is due to Brexit because they are areas where the French or Spanish do not buy - this is how they were able to snap great properties for a low price, but then had to spend lots for renovations - but now the low exchange rate, worry about pension no longer indexed and health care no longer reciprocal, post Brexit - etc- means they won't be able to stay- and new Britis retirees won't be coming either.

Yes, Germans or Swiss may buy- but they will also have studied the market and realise what is going on, and make ridiculously low offers.
You confirm my point: They are sitting on property which
a. they bought considering it a bargain
b. they improved heavily by investing heavily, possibly expecting it to increase in value like a similar home in the UK
c. no one wants to buy at their expected price.

The only relation to Brexit is that these buyers now want to sell. All of them and at the same time. Which means that there is a lot of supply of such homes and very limited demand.
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  #9035  
Old 04.06.2017, 17:43
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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Yes but this only applies to UK citizens who have lived in France for at least five years and have obtained a permanent residence permit. And of course we still don't know who exactly UK citizens will be treated in the EU after BREXIT.... I would expect that any UK citizen who has a permanent residence permit for any EU country will be OK. But with the UK hell bent on a hard exit who can say.
WRT, the situation is different for the Swiss/EU bilateral treaties and UK citizens in Switzerland (and vice versa).
These specifically state (unlike the arrangements between the EU countries) that after a bilateral is cancelled people keep their rights.

Quote:
Article 23

Acquired rights

In the event of termination or non-renewal, rights acquired by private individuals shall not be affected.
The Contracting Parties shall settle by mutual agreement what action is to be taken in respect of rights in the process of being acquired.
Nothing to do with the Vienna convention.
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  #9036  
Old 04.06.2017, 17:59
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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WRT - sorry I'm not familiar one?
WRT FMOP = With Respect To Free Movement Of People

The Vienna Convention doesn't come into play, the regulation is part of the treaty itself, article 23 to be precise.

ETA
marton beat me to it.
  #9037  
Old 04.06.2017, 18:22
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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WRT FMOP = With Respect To Free Movement Of People

The Vienna Convention doesn't come into play, the regulation is part of the treaty itself, article 23 to be precise.

ETA
marton beat me to it.
There are a couple of problems with this logic:
- the bilateral is between the EU and CH
- the bilateral is will not be terminated so the termination provision cannot be envoked
- the U.K. while enjoying the benefits of the treaty is not a party to the treaty in its own right

I honestly can see much comfort there.
  #9038  
Old 05.06.2017, 11:29
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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There are a couple of problems with this logic:
- the bilateral is between the EU and CH
... and the EU member countries, they're explicitly called contracting parties in the treaty itself. Since the treaty got adjusted, and the terms eventually applied fully, to the new members, the inverse logic should apply as well upon Brexit.

But even if it doesn't, the C permit is permanent (AuG §34.1), it can only be revoked (AuG §63) in case of severe criminality or in case of long-term dependency on social help. Renewal of the paper is merely a formality that serves as a check, getting a new one [as it's issued by the Kanton] upon a change of residency that involves moving to another Kanton is a right (conditional to AuG §63).

The relationship between the paper and the right itself is the same as that between passport and citizenship.

(AuG = Ausländergesetz, law on foreigners, here's the German version)
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  #9039  
Old 05.06.2017, 11:36
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Re: Brits Living in Swiss - impact from Brexit

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The 6 months rule is easy to by-pass via relatives in such cases.
Thats called fraud, amazed you are advocating such a thing.
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  #9040  
Old 05.06.2017, 11:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I wouldn't say that Odile advocated a fraudulant method. I don't know the rules but maybe having propertly there, she simply wouldn't come under the six month ruling. What she said was that others with relatives there could perhaps find ways of 'circumnavigating' the law illegally.
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