The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	For us UK retirees in Switzerland, the issues will be first exchange rates- then whether reciprocal health care agreement will still stand, probably not, and whether pensions will continue to be index linked, probably not.

This is a definite, once the UK exits all rights and obligations come to an end as per A50. It will then be up to the UK government to decide what to do - seek an agreement or let it laps. I think the biggest problem is the mountain of work ahead of the UK government and their priorities towards Switzerland. At this point all concerns have been about guaranteeing the rights of UK & EU citizens, not a mention of the rest.

	Quote:
	without being able to sell their house.

Don't think there is any doubt that they will be entitled to dispose of their property, but it may not be at the prices they expect.

	Quote:	koblenz
	What do you mean by 'without being able to sell their house'? because most expats have bought houses in rural areas of France or costal areas of Spain- which they bought cheap as they are not in areas where the French or the Spanish want to live- then spent all their savings renovating. As the number of Brits moving to those areas will drop fast due to the above (exchange rate, pensions, reciprocal healthcare agreements) - then the houses will be virtually unsellable - or at such extremely low prices Isn't the exchange rate already an issue for you though? If your income is in GBP and GBP is weak against EUR and CHF etc. then it makes sense to be in the UK I guess. Odile, are you planning to sell up in CH and move back to the UK? Surely would optimize your finances and use of income this way! Yes, it is - about a 40% loss when the CHF was depinned to the E- which, for us, was just about ok as long as we tightened our belt- then a slow further 20% and now, with Brexit, possibly more. We have gone from 2.50 to 1.18 at lowest point. It was a massive move to come here (where I was born and bred, and to look after my parents) - and yes, a return to the UK is very much a possibility- but was NOT the plan at all. When you get to your late 60s and 70s- a big move is not really something you want to do- again. Our income is moderate, not high, but thankfully it is almost entirely in CHF, so we can just about get by living in CH since we're owner occupiers, no expensive rate to pay. Of course we shop both in-store and online in Germany to save money. We have even looked into moving into the border regions in G/F/A to see if we would be better off, but did not come to any firm conclusions. We are lucky to live very close to French border, so can shop in France for many things, or in the UK when we go. Yes, it helps. Losing 60% of income is not for faint hearted - losing more post Brexit would be

See how it goes - I know some here find the whole thing hilarious- we don't, ta.

Jim I know many Britis in rural France who already find it impossible to sell their property, at any price- as Brits are already too scared of possible consequences post Brexit. It has been calculated that the effect of 1000s upon 1000s of British retirees from EU- would cost a massive amount of money and put massive added pressure to NHS, social housing and social payments.

[koblenz]

Thank you for the explanation about property.

About moving only too true what you say.
My grandparents (U.K.) were going to move (and downsize) in the mid-90s, then my grandmother died and the move never happened. My grandfather is now 94 and still in the big house he built in the 1950s. On the bright side still enjoying the garden and his independance.

The later the move is left to, the harder it becomes and the upheaval will probably eventually seem unbearable. Of course sometimes due to health problems it can be forced/essential.
It is something that I have been talking about right now with my aunt (retired) as she herself wants to stay in her own home where she is (also U.K.) but there is always the factor of the stairs and any future possibility of mobility issues. She also has ground rent to consider and a lease which is shortening, not to mention the landowner proposing extending it for a further 90 years for exorbitant amounts to improve its 'saleability'...

I can't imagine losing 60% of our income. We would have to sell up and move just to stay afloat.
At least you have your property here in CH and can sell for CHF one day, preferably when CHF is very strong (if you need to convert some of that money into GBP immediately), if the U.K. is your destination...
This is one of the reasons we bought in CH, so that one day, if we need to move out of CH, then we can either rent out or sell the property depending on our needs at that point.

[xkcd]

	Quote:
	Jim I know many Britis in rural France who already find it impossible to sell their property, at any price- as Brits are already too scared of possible consequences post Brexit.

I don´t get your point. Why should Brits in rural France not be able to sell their property ? If other Brits are "too scared" to buy because of Brexit one could always sell to a French, German, Spanish, ... buyer.
In case they are sitting on a piece of property in rural France which no one is interested in - well, that doesn´t have anything to do with Brexit, but with the location of the property.

[koblenz]

	Quote:	xkcd
	I don´t get your point. Why should Brits in rural France not be able to sell their property ? If other Brits are "too scared" to buy because of Brexit one could always sell to a French, German, Spanish, ... buyer. In case they are sitting on a piece of property in rural France which no one is interested in - well, that doesn´t have anything to do with Brexit, but with the location of the property.

I think the point is also people may be considering returning to the U.K. (what with Brexit and the weakened pound) and may need to sell in France or wherever to finance a home in the U.K.
With the pound weaker against EUR and CHF, selling here means you can buy more for your money at the moment in the U.K., providing of course you can find a buyer for your property on the continent.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	See how it goes - I know some here find the whole thing hilarious- we don't, ta. Jim I know many Britis in rural France who already find it impossible to sell their property, at any price- as Brits are already too scared of possible consequences post Brexit. It has been calculated that the effect of 1000s upon 1000s of British retirees from EU- would cost a massive amount of money and put massive added pressure to NHS, social housing and social payments.

Property can always be sold at 'any price', start an auction at 1 euro it will sell.
They won't be entitled to anything for at least 6 months & will likely be at the very end of the queue for social housing especially as they have made themselves voluntary homeless.

[koblenz]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	They won't be entitled to anything for at least 6 months

What won't they be entitled to for the first 6 months at least?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	koblenz
	What won't they be entitled to for the first 6 months at least?

Unless you have been living for 6 months in the UK, they will consider you a visitor. Same for a driving UK license

[koblenz]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Unless you have been living for 6 months in the UK, they will consider you a visitor. Same for a driving UK license

Even with a U.K. passport?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	koblenz
	Even with a U.K. passport?

Sure, it's about residence, nothing to do with citizenship.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	koblenz
	Even with a U.K. passport?

Passports don't count for much in the British Isles. Both Ireland and the UK have provisions in their legislation to treat each others citizens as if they were all locals by declaring each other not to be a foreigner!, so it all comes down to how long you are actually resident in the locality, normally for most things it is six months regardless of what passport you hold (UK or Irish).

	Quote:	xkcd
	I don´t get your point. Why should Brits in rural France not be able to sell their property ? If other Brits are "too scared" to buy because of Brexit one could always sell to a French, German, Spanish, ... buyer.

Perhaps you didn't read my post- it is due to Brexit because they are areas where the French or Spanish do not buy - this is how they were able to snap great properties for a low price, but then had to spend lots for renovations - but now the low exchange rate, worry about pension no longer indexed and health care no longer reciprocal, post Brexit - etc- means they won't be able to stay- and new Britis retirees won't be coming either.

Yes, Germans or Swiss may buy- but they will also have studied the market and realise what is going on, and make ridiculously low offers.

As for being at bottom of queue for housing in the UK- I can imagine that there might be an uproar if 1000s of elderly British returnees are sleeping rough... and have no access to healthcare. The 6 months rule is easy to by-pass via relatives in such cases.

None of this apply to us (well apart from exchange rateand pension lock) thank goodness. We knew there might be trouble ahead and made sure we planned accordingly. As daughters and grandchildren are in UK- and we still have property there- we would be fine.

Mind you, there is no way we could afford to buy a decent place near either daughters- for sure. An old friend of ours had great difficulty selling his place in France, even before Brexit talks- and there is no way they would have been able to buy in Ealing- where the house they sold for 350 is now worth 2 million. They were looking at Lincolnshire as one of the few places they could afford to return- in a much much smaller place (sadly he met his demise beforehand).

[curley]

	Quote:	FrankZappa
	For Britons who work in Switzerland but live in France or Germany, I think it will be the end of the road. Britons will no longer be "Europeans", so they cannot be frontaliers. Options, IMHO, either take a European nationality or move to Switzerland. Added later: This opinion may be wrong. It may still be doable. Expert opinion needed...

Isn't that going to be a double problem? 1) living in France 2) working in CH as a frontalier.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

Of course they can Frank Zappa. It just depends on your status in France, Germany, Italy, etc. If you have a permanent residence card in any of these and live in a border zone area you can still have a G permit.

"Third-country nationals will only be given a cross-border commuter G-permit, if they have a permanent residence permit in a neighboring country. They also need to have had their residence in the neighboring country’s border zone for at least six months and fulfill the labor market requirements. G-permits are usually valid for one year, and are limited to the border zone of the issuing canton. Third-country border commuters require permission to change jobs or occupations."

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...willigung.html

The main problem will be whether or not your Swiss employer has to reapply for a permit for you via the non-EU hiring criteria.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	FrankZappa
	Britons will no longer be "Europeans", so they cannot be frontaliers.

That's a nonsequitur.

For frontaliers into Switzerland nationality is irrelevant, residence is key. How UK nationals get (the right to or permit for) residence is a different question.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Quote: koblenz I have asked the OP which permit they have as I think anyone with a C-permit is not really going to be affected by Brexit with regard to their immigration status here. That would be my expectation as well.

It's a given, actually. WRT FMOP all rights gained under the Bilaterale by individuals persist beyond the treaty's effectiveness. AFAIK C permit extension is a right.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	"Third-country nationals will only be given a cross-border commuter G-permit, if they have a permanent residence permit in a neighboring country. They also need to have had their residence in the neighboring country’s border zone for at least six months and fulfill the labor market requirements. G-permits are usually valid for one year, and are limited to the border zone of the issuing canton. Third-country border commuters require permission to change jobs or occupations."

Yes but this only applies to UK citizens who have lived in France for at least five years and have obtained a permanent residence permit. And of course we still don't know who exactly UK citizens will be treated in the EU after BREXIT.... I would expect that any UK citizen who has a permanent residence permit for any EU country will be OK. But with the UK hell bent on a hard exit who can say.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	It's a given, actually. WRT FMOP all rights gained by individuals persist beyond the treaty's effectiveness. AFAIK C permit extension is a right.

WRT - sorry I'm not familiar one?

And it is highly questionable if the Vienna Convention on the law of treaties applies to EU treaties as they are not treaties between nations as envisioned by the convention! If fact the only legal opinions I have seen that take a positive view are from the UK....

Indeed when I to took European law 30 years ago, it was pointed out by some of the Profs. that it is unlikely that the Vienna Convention applies to such treaties, because they are treaties between the peoples of nations and not between nations. The fact that Ireland, Denmark and France have a requirement for the citizens to approve the treaties makes it difficult to argue otherwise in court.

But that said, I still expect that permanent residents will be OK.

[xkcd]

	Quote:
	Perhaps you didn't read my post- it is due to Brexit because they are areas where the French or Spanish do not buy - this is how they were able to snap great properties for a low price, but then had to spend lots for renovations - but now the low exchange rate, worry about pension no longer indexed and health care no longer reciprocal, post Brexit - etc- means they won't be able to stay- and new Britis retirees won't be coming either. Yes, Germans or Swiss may buy- but they will also have studied the market and realise what is going on, and make ridiculously low offers.

You confirm my point: They are sitting on property which
a. they bought considering it a bargain
b. they improved heavily by investing heavily, possibly expecting it to increase in value like a similar home in the UK
c. no one wants to buy at their expected price.

The only relation to Brexit is that these buyers now want to sell. All of them and at the same time. Which means that there is a lot of supply of such homes and very limited demand.

[marton]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Yes but this only applies to UK citizens who have lived in France for at least five years and have obtained a permanent residence permit. And of course we still don't know who exactly UK citizens will be treated in the EU after BREXIT.... I would expect that any UK citizen who has a permanent residence permit for any EU country will be OK. But with the UK hell bent on a hard exit who can say.

WRT, the situation is different for the Swiss/EU bilateral treaties and UK citizens in Switzerland (and vice versa).
These specifically state (unlike the arrangements between the EU countries) that after a bilateral is cancelled people keep their rights.

	Quote:
	Article 23 Acquired rights In the event of termination or non-renewal, rights acquired by private individuals shall not be affected. The Contracting Parties shall settle by mutual agreement what action is to be taken in respect of rights in the process of being acquired.

Nothing to do with the Vienna convention.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	WRT - sorry I'm not familiar one?

WRT FMOP = With Respect To Free Movement Of People

The Vienna Convention doesn't come into play, the regulation is part of the treaty itself, article 23 to be precise.

ETA
marton beat me to it.