The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	WRT FMOP = With Respect To Free Movement Of People The Vienna Convention doesn't come into play, the regulation is part of the treaty itself, article 23 to be precise. ETA marton beat me to it.

There are a couple of problems with this logic:
- the bilateral is between the EU and CH
- the bilateral is will not be terminated so the termination provision cannot be envoked
- the U.K. while enjoying the benefits of the treaty is not a party to the treaty in its own right

I honestly can see much comfort there.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	There are a couple of problems with this logic: - the bilateral is between the EU and CH

... and the EU member countries, they're explicitly called contracting parties in the treaty itself. Since the treaty got adjusted, and the terms eventually applied fully, to the new members, the inverse logic should apply as well upon Brexit.

But even if it doesn't, the C permit is permanent (AuG §34.1), it can only be revoked (AuG §63) in case of severe criminality or in case of long-term dependency on social help. Renewal of the paper is merely a formality that serves as a check, getting a new one [as it's issued by the Kanton] upon a change of residency that involves moving to another Kanton is a right (conditional to AuG §63).

The relationship between the paper and the right itself is the same as that between passport and citizenship.

(AuG = Ausländergesetz, law on foreigners, here's the German version)

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	The 6 months rule is easy to by-pass via relatives in such cases.

Thats called fraud, amazed you are advocating such a thing.

[Longbyt]

I wouldn't say that Odile advocated a fraudulant method. I don't know the rules but maybe having propertly there, she simply wouldn't come under the six month ruling. What she said was that others with relatives there could perhaps find ways of 'circumnavigating' the law illegally.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Longbyt
	I wouldn't say that Odile advocated a fraudulant method. I don't know the rules but maybe having propertly there, she simply wouldn't come under the six month ruling. What she said was that others with relatives there could perhaps find ways of 'circumnavigating' the law illegally.

Having a property there is irrelevant, you have either been living in the UK for 6 months or you have not.

There is no way to circumnavigating the law legally........ only making a FRAUDULENT declaration. I hope anybody who tries gets prosecuted.

Those people living in France or Spain would possibly be entitled to help in France or Spain if they meet the criteria, just the same as locals.

[baboon]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Those people living in France or Spain would possibly be entitled to help in France or Spain if they meet the criteria, just the same as locals.

Not once the UK has left the EU they won't. Won't be EU citizens any more.

[koblenz]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	the C permit is permanent (AuG §34.1), it can only be revoked (AuG §63) in case of severe criminality or in case of long-term dependency on social help. Renewal of the paper is merely a formality that serves as a check, getting a new one [as it's issued by the Kanton] upon a change of residency that involves moving to another Kanton is a right (conditional to AuG §63).

And only a few dozen C-permits are revoked every year for severe criminality.
I doubt there are any cases where a C-permit is revoked for dependence on social welfare. Many C-permit holders may well have been here over 15 years and therefore currently that article doesn't even apply to them.

2 Die Niederlassungsbewilligung von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern, die sich seit
mehr als 15 Jahren ununterbrochen und ordnungsgemäss in der Schweiz aufhalten,
kann nur aus Gründen von Absatz 1 Buchstabe b und Artikel 62 Buchstabe b65
widerrufen werden.

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...000/142.20.pdf

A C-permit is, in essence, a settlement permit and brings with it a range of rights. This is probably why CH has made it harder to obtain a C-permit in recent years.

	Quote:	baboon
	Not once the UK has left the EU they won't. Won't be EU citizens any more.

But won't that depend on what is decided in the Brexit agreement should there be one?

Several Tories are trying to use the election result as an excuse to water down Brexit and go for a "softer" option. They'd do well to remember that well over 80% voted for pro-Brexit parties.

It should either be hard Brexit or no Brexit. I don't see the point of anything else. Why should the UK remain in things like the single market when they'd have no more influence over it from the outside.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Several Tories are trying to use the election result as an excuse to water down Brexit and go for a "softer" option. They'd do well to remember that well over 80% voted for pro-Brexit parties. It should either be hard Brexit or no Brexit. I don't see the point of anything else. Why should the UK remain in things like the single market when they'd have no more influence over it from the outside.

"They'd do well to remember that well over 80% voted for pro-Brexit parties."

1. But they did not vote for pro hard Brexit parties.

2. They did not give May the strong Brexit mandate she requested.

Anyway the only way that May will get the DUP on board is by junking "hard Brexit" so everything else is not relevant.

	Quote:	marton
	"They'd do well to remember that well over 80% voted for pro-Brexit parties." 1. But they did not vote for pro hard Brexit parties. 2. They did not give May the strong Brexit mandate she requested. Anyway the only way that May will get the DUP on board is by junking "hard Brexit" so everything else is not relevant.

Corbyn wants to quit single market and free movement of people. That's pretty hard in my book.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Corbyn wants to quit single market and free movement of people. That's pretty hard in my book.

From the manifesto:

	Quote:
	We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

	Quote:	baboon
	From the manifesto:

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59...b02402687a2460

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59...b02402687a2460

From your link "He added: “Where I frame it is we want a tariff-free access to the European market.”"

That is not hard Brexit

	Quote:	marton
	From your link "He added: “Where I frame it is we want a tariff-free access to the European market.”" That is not hard Brexit

The Tories want that too

Not the same as retaining membership of the single market though, is it?

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Not the same as retaining membership of the single market though, is it?

How would that be done from outside? Free EEA access requires a host of additional stuff, including conforming legislation and probably being subject to the ECJ. So much for "taking back authority".

	Quote:	Longbyt
	I wouldn't say that Odile advocated a fraudulant method. I don't know the rules but maybe having propertly there, she simply wouldn't come under the six month ruling. What she said was that others with relatives there could perhaps find ways of 'circumnavigating' the law illegally.

Of course I was not advocating it. But it happens all the time. Would be interesting to know how our Swiss EHIC would cover us, or not, for emergency care?

It is estimated that 1000s of expats return to UK, via relatives addresses, for surgery and other expensive treatment. We never have, and never would.

[marton]

Some newspapers are claiming that the DUP are demanding Farage is given a role in the UK Brexit negotiation team

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	Some newspapers are claiming that the DUP are demanding Farage is given a role in the UK Brexit negotiation team

Sounds like trolling to me. I don't think much love is lost between Farage and the DUP.

But then on the other hand we live in crazy times. So who knows?

	Quote:	amogles
	Sounds like trolling to me. I don't think much love is lost between Farage and the DUP. But then on the other hand we live in crazy times. So who knows?

Or it's the DUP asking for the sun, moon and stars in the hope - once the list is whittled down - they'll get exactly what they want.

Great negotiation practice for Mrs May in the run up to Brexit starting.. at this rate, Brexit will be easier than dealing with the DUP

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	Some newspapers are claiming that the DUP are demanding Farage is given a role in the UK Brexit negotiation team

Well that might be cheaper than what I've been hearing! Apparently the list includes:
- Massive investment in healthcare so patients are not required to travel to Dublin for some treatment
- Massive investment in Education
- An increase and commitment to maintain farming subsidies
- Subsidies/tax cuts for NI businesses
- Some kind of soft boarder, but with no checks between NI and mainland UK...

All their Christmases come at once.