The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Jim2007
	But what exactly are you expecting to achieve?

I'm not expecting to achieve anything. I'm still not convinced that the United Kingdom will actually leave the EU.

But I voted because the long term objective of the EU is the establishment of a European federal state, and I do not wish to be part of such a project.

This has been less a negotiation and more a set of demands being made by the EU. Has there been a single issue on which they've budged? *waits for marton*
ECJ rule is a red line, and has been from the start. Financial Settlement is the UK's trump card and won't be played until further down the line. It's time for the UK to use the strongest negotiation tactic available to them and walk away. Let's see how much the EU really cares about the rights of citizens and the Irish border. There's 18 months now to prepare for no deal. All possible resources should be put into this.

As an aside, can you imagine Maggie putting up with this?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	As an aside, can you imagine Maggie putting up with this?

Yeah, I can, actually.

Never forget that it was a Tory government (not led by Mags, admittedly) that dragged us into the EU.

For all their bluster, most Parliamentary Tories have always been very pro-EEC/EU. Most of them still are.

That's one of the reasons I don't think Brexit isn't going to happen. Nobody in power actually wants it.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	As an aside, can you imagine Maggie putting up with this?

I think things would never have come this far under Maggie. She knew how to twist the arms of people in Brussels. She wasn't always fair to everybody there and would sometimes have to handbag her way out of dogfights. They hated her for it, but she got things her way.

If only Cameron had had a bit more of her oompf, we might have had a remain on favourable terms.

	Quote:
	But I voted because the long term objective of the EU is the establishment of a European federal state, and I do not wish to be part of such a project.

Given the history of Europe (including the UK) and the number of wars over the centuries, I very much do want it.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	As an aside, can you imagine Maggie putting up with this?

This would be the Maggie that was one of the main architects of the single market?

	Quote:
	Given the history of Europe (including the UK) and the number of wars over the centuries, I very much do want it.

And that's fine. I know quite a few people who think a federal Europe is an excellent idea.

I just happen to disagree.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Given the history of Europe (including the UK) and the number of wars over the centuries, I very much do want it.

Why?

What all the great empires of history have in common is that they don't last very long and that when they come down war, suffering, famine and lots of other nasty things emerge from the debris.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	No one has ever claimed this.

Try using the search function before making such claims

	Quote:	amogles
	I'm not so sure. I think it was being portrayed that way. But I talked to a lot of people at the time, and despite what the media were saying, immigration was not a topic that came up in a predominant way. I think attempts by certain people on the remainer side to use a broad brush and call the entire leave camaign racist may actually have backfired and hurt them as people realized it wasn't true.

	Quote:	amogles
	Why? What all the great empires of history have in common is that they don't last very long and that when they come down war, suffering, famine and lots of other nasty things emerge from the debris.

Empire =/= federation. Although even ignoring that the Roman one seems to have lasted quite a few centuries.

As a federation (and I would want the EU to be a bit looser than that) the USA seems to do OK.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	That's one of the reasons I don't think Brexit isn't going to happen. Nobody in power actually wants it.

My difficulty with this is, the task at hand would have been enormous with strong leadership. However, we're facing this task with exceptionally weak, leadership that's beholden to the DUP for it's very existence.

Going back to before the referendum, I said time and again that we should let someone else leave first, before making the move. At the time, the Netherlands were on course to be the first. We could have easily hung fire and watched what the outcome would be.

As it is, the referendum went ahead based upon a whim, a concept, a host of possible ideas, but absolutely zero forward planning. You wouldn't move house with so little information to hand, so why the hell risk a thriving economy on that?

Before the referendum, it was bandied about that 3 million UK jobs were linked to EU membership. That has since been upgraded to 4.5 million jobs currently at risk. 4.5 MILLION!!!!!

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/

What worries me the most about where we are now is, if Brexit does turn out to be a good idea, the majority of us won't live to see it.

[st2lemans]

Tom

Meh, America has lost every war it has fought since 1945 and still seems to be a world power.

[bigblue2]

	Quote:
	meh, america has drawn every conflict it has fought since 1945 and still seems to be a world power.

ftfy

	Quote:	bigblue2
	ftfy

Even a Las Vegas Boxing judge would struggle to score Vietnam a draw.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	What worries me the most about where we are now is, if Brexit does turn out to be a good idea, the majority of us won't live to see it.

The same has been said about tackling climate change.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Even a Las Vegas Boxing judge would struggle to score Vietnam a draw.

For Vietnam to have won, Vietnam would have had to conquer America.

WW2 wasn't won by a succesful defence of Stalingrad alone

	Quote:	amogles
	For Vietnam to have won, Vietnam would have had to conquer America.

So the only side who can win a war is the aggressor? We must inform the historians!

I was going to give America the benefit of the doubt and say they won the Cold War, but you've changed my mind.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	So the only side who can win a war is the aggressor? We must inform the historians! I was going to give America the benefit of the doubt and say they won the Cold War, but you've changed my mind.

Now that even Putin admits that capitalism is probably a good thing, and that Bernie Sanders failed to become POTUS, I would say they did win that.

[marton]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Tom

First world war started when on 28 July 1914 the Austro-Hungarians declared war on Serbia, Germany joined later.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	Even a Las Vegas Boxing judge would struggle to score Vietnam a draw.

Depends on the objective.

Since no additional countries in the region fell for communism it can be seen as a success even though it was a military loss.

Just don't ask for proof of the theory.