The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Loz1983
	What can the government do on citizens rights that will make Remainers happy though? Say they're using EU citizens rights as a bargaining tool in the negotiations - Remainer "HOW DARE YOU USE PEOPLE AS PAWNS IN THE BREXIT NEGOTIATIONS!" Say nothing - Remainer "THE UNCERTAINTY IS UNFAIR FOR THESE POOR PEOPLE, TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON!" Say EU citizens rights are secured - Remainer "BULLSHIT! WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU!" See how it works yet?

If they made an official statement like point 3, we'd all be happy. If some gobshite jaws off with a load of unsubstantiated nonsense, we're not happy. See how it works yet?

	Quote:
	Confirmation - Brexiters ARE thick: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...emain-pollster

Better educated = More middle class = More intelligent
Lower educated = More working class = Thick.

Gotta love the Graun/Labour

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Better educated = More middle class = More intelligent Lower educated = More working class = Thick. Gotta love the Graun/Labour

His point was factually correct and he never used the word "thick".

It's almost like some right-wing outlets chose to use the word "thick" in order to help their definitely-not-thick readers to understand.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Better educated = More middle class = More intelligent Lower educated = More working class = Thick. Gotta love the Graun/Labour

My thoughts exactly.

We are here to defend the poor, the downtrodden, the poor and the needy.

As long as they don't voice their opinions.

	Quote:
	If they made an official statement like point 3, we'd all be happy. If some gobshite jaws off with a load of unsubstantiated nonsense, we're not happy. See how it works yet?

What, like the one made by the PM at Lancaster House at the beginning of the year? Guess you weren't paying attention.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	What, like the one made by the PM at Lancaster House at the beginning of the year? Guess you weren't paying attention.

Please, enlighten us.

	Quote:
	Please, enlighten us.

My pleasure.

	Quote:
	6. Rights for EU nationals in Britain, and British nationals in the EU Fairness demands that we deal with another issue as soon as possible too. We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now. Many of them favour such an agreement – 1 or 2 others do not – but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.

The Government position is clear, they want to keep reciprocal rights for EU citizens in the UK and vice versa, only under UK law rather than ECJ. ECJ rule in the UK is a red line. The ball is in the EU's court on this. Whatever happens in the negotiations, the right for EU citizens to stay in the UK under UK law is virtually guaranteed.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	My pleasure. The Government position is clear, they want to keep reciprocal rights for EU citizens in the UK and vice versa, only under UK law rather than ECJ. ECJ rule in the UK is a red line. The ball is in the EU's court on this. Whatever happens in the negotiations, the right for EU citizens to stay in the UK under UK law is virtually guaranteed.

Excellent non-committal nothing burger. We want to do this, we could do that. Show me some "we will" or "we are going to" then we can talk.

I don't even think the whole farce is about Brexiter vs Remainer anymore anyway.

It's now more about "WTAF are these people doing??" and anyone from either side of the vote can join in. I know hardened Brexiters who are definitely unhappy that what is going on is not what they bought into.

People bleating about the bully-boy tactics of Brussels is mainly just smoke and mirrors for the government to hide the fact it is utterly out of its depth. Well, actually, they don't really seem to be hiding that fact either.

The EU is obviously going to drag its heels and not roll over, and doesn't have to work too hard at throwing up obstacles either . The impotent negotiation approach coming from the UK doesn't have anywhere near the teeth it should have.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I have dual nationality (born and bred swiss) but have no pension at all in Switzerland as I worked all my adult life, and therefore contributed, in the UK.

Nationally is irrelevant, it's where you live & where you get a pension from that defines the rules.

	Quote:
	Excellent non-committal nothing burger. We want to do this, we could do that. Show me some "we will" or "we are going to" then we can talk.

The government position is clear yet how are they supposed to say "we will" or "we are going to", without any reciprocal offer from the EU? This is negotiation at the end and to do so would be imbecilic. Johnson is an imbecile though, and part of the government, and it's virtually clear now that rights are secure.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Link please. No free treatment for us UK pensioners resident in CH- we have 300CHF franchise and have to pay 10% up to 700CHF. My knee replacement cost me therefore 1000CHF. So will the second one in March next year. My comment however was about UK residents in other EU countries- as there private insurances do NOT have to take on anyone with pre-exisiting conditions- which is key for older retirees in particular. From Gov.uk: new regs from 2015. Within the UK, free NHS treatment is provided on the basis of someone being ‘ordinarily resident’. It is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK. As is the case already, most people, who live or work in another EEA country or Switzerland will continue to get free NHS care using a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) issued by the country they live in. This means the NHS can reclaim healthcare costs from the original country of residence. Perhaps you are confused about retirees who have taken early retirement, and are not yet recipients of State Pension. We were in that position when we first moved here in 2009 - OH 63 and me 58. We had to pay Swiss Insurance until OH was in receipt of official UK state pension at 65 (I was then covered as his dependent. Moreover, under new regs since 2015, UK retireees in EU and Switzerand now have free access to NHS UK, even if resident in other EU country or Switzerland- which was not the case before unless for emergencies using EHIC.

300 + max 700 = 1,000, it a way cheaper than a Swiss pensioner living in UK who will still have that 1k liability but have to pay 3600 a year premium to get FREE health cover. No doubt you can go to a private hospital if you want. What even worse is the premium has to be paid after tax, UK does not allow any deductions for health insurance.

I am not confused, I get free healthcare in Malta because I am British, however if I take a Swiss OAP I will have to pay Swiss health insurance & will no longer get free health care in Malta.

By UK retirees you mean people with a UK pension, just as a Brit with a CH pension (Swiss retirees) living in the EU will pay Swiss insurance & be able to get treatment in CH as well as where they live.

Edid 393 CHF a month for a Swiss pensioner living in the UK, no option on deductible

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The government position is clear yet how are they supposed to say "we will" or "we are going to", without any reciprocal offer from the EU? This is negotiation at the end and to do so would be imbecilic. Johnson is an imbecile though, and part of the government, and it's virtually clear now that rights are secure.

So, in summary, the government have never officially guaranteed the rights of EU Citizens. You have brought no evidence to the table, despite saying you had some. You believe they have done, to justify your argument. Plus ca change.

	Quote:
	So, in summary, the government have never officially guaranteed the rights of EU Citizens. You have brought no evidence to the table, despite saying you had some. You believe they have done, to justify your argument. Plus ca change.

In summary, whatever the government say on this matter will not satisfy Remainers. You are just further proof of this point

	Quote:	Loz1983
	In summary, whatever the government say on this matter will not satisfy Remainers. You are just further proof of this point

Yawn. I'll be satisfied with hard fact, not some flim-flam to avoid commitment.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	In summary, whatever the government say on this matter will not satisfy Remainers. You are just further proof of this point

I'm not sure if you are deliberately misunderstanding the reasoning which has been pointed out to you several times:

People who are tired of the Brexit debacle headed up by liars, incompetents and glory-seekers who couldn't negotiate their way out of a cupboard.

You seem to nickname them "Remainers".



People who are happy to swallow whatever bullshit is put out by the Brexit negotiators.

You seem to nickname "Leavers".

	Quote:	amogles
	Yes and no.in other words, you can't have it both ways. You can't say expats are going to return to the Uk in droves because they can't afford to live in Euroland, while at the same timke saying that the cost of living in the Uk is going to skyrocket to the point that people will have to leave.

the main reason I quoted was not only for exchange rates lowering pensions significanty- but FOR LOSS OF HEALTH CARE COVER. If UK expats in France or Spain have to take up private cover (taking into account their age and often multiple health conditions, likely to get worse not better (the reality for over 70s) - it would be very expensive, perhaps not even possible. The combination of both would be huge. The French GVT has made it clear to expats that they 'permis de séjour/carte vitale' are only valid until 29th March 2019.

A very moving letter from Robert Peston to his dead father - WHAT THE DO WE DO NOW?


What the *uck indeed. :

https://behindthepaywallblog.wordpre...f-the-country/

And an interesting reply from a friend:

'It's easy to agree with Robert Peston about how we've arrived at this impossible juncture in our country's history. Many people felt left out and voiceless as both the Tories and Labour changed Britain over decades from a country which made things to one which sold financial products and kept filling the countryside with warehouses full of imported goods. Yes we have near full employment but so much of it is low paid, insecure and low skilled work.
Our education system has educated many more to go to university only for them to find that there are too few jobs requiring their degree skills.
Our society wasn't necessarily disintegrating but rather losing hope that things will ever improve after a decade of austerity measures to correct a banking crisis not of it's making.
Young people are losing hope that they will ever be as well off or even own their own homes as their parents had, and older people are finding that the ever deceasing social services and care home system has little time for them.
Was any of this as a result of us being in the EU? No of course it wasn't.
But those privileged individuals who want to reduce taxes and keep their tax avoidance schemes knew they could only do this if they could persuade people that everything was the EU's fault, and that we had to leave.
Of course they didn't want people to realise that the country as a whole would be far worse off outside the EU, therefore any reasoned augment pointing this out was instantly dismissed as 'Project Fear'. That appeared gave them the moral high ground to their believers, despite the fact that it was totally disingenuous.
The right-wing newspapers were very happy to help drag us out of our lifeboat called the EU because they too wanted a low tax, low benefit economy.
So the genuine grievances that many people have regarding their circumstances made it easy for the leave campaigners such as Farage, Gove etc. to, through slight of hand, pin the blame on foreigners and the EU. People wanted answers and these people told them they had one. What they didn't say of course was that the cure would make them all far worse off in the long run. That wouldn't have won votes.
So as we stand on the precipice what can be done to stop us falling over it?
Is it possible that people who were misled by the false promises will see what has been done to them before it's too late? I really hope so,'

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Better educated = More middle class = More intelligent Lower educated = More working class = Thick. Gotta love the Graun/Labour

Happily I am lower educated & thick, but able to choose to retire at 52 and enjoy the last 30 years of my life. If I had stayed at school as my parents wanted & went to university there is no way I would be retired.
Education reduces the ability to think for yourself, which is often overlooked by the superior educated of this world that believe they are the chosen ones.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Education reduces the ability to think for yourself..

Naw, just depends on how stubborn one is

Whether some people feel worthier than others, maybe those who paid a lot for their degrees, feel like they bought some imaginery value.

You are far from thick, especially if you were able to retire at 52.

Back to Brexit - I have a hard time with the logic of the anger some people feel there, for "being misled". Isn't it again an issue of being able to think for oneself? Nobody was mislead. People wanted to believe something, so they did. Better own up to it instead posing for victimes of the media..politicians, etc. People voted, so be it. At least they realize they have power to change things with their vote.