The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[pdofr]

	Quote:	marton
	As the Republicans in the US are demonstrating that despite their Congress majority and a Republican President politicians rarely have the skills needed to actually get things done! For example, a list of key political skills; Writing and Research Skills. ... Public Speaking and Presentation Skills. ... Knowledge of Social Media. ... Understanding Your Audience. ... Crisis Management and Problem Solving. This is why many people thought that Trump as a business man would be someone who could actually make positive changes. Consequently it is no surprise that UK politicians in the Brexit negotiations are failing; maybe they should have given lead roles in these Brexit negotiations to the Civil Service?

If you care to look at the text of the Investigatory Powers Act *, you will see what a mess they have made of it. I've read quite a few pieces of legislation in my time (mainly to do with general business and taxation) but never come across anything so complicated to read. Perhaps that's the intention.

* See Can GCHQ order techies to work as govt snoops? Experts fear: 'Yes' and the linked Act Section 190 for an example.

I really do wonder if we are seeing the end result of the dropping of the Classics in education here.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Probably came from this fella https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ag37o https://twitter.com/lukeming/status/933650781642870784

Oh, and if anyone is wondering why Mr Ming is so upset, here's why:

https://ec.europa.eu/avservices/vide...INT&sublg=none
https://twitter.com/eu_eeas/status/933657281979404288

Remember all those Leave lies? The side of the Bus? Well here is what chief Remain campaigner Nick Clegg had to say on the prospect of a European Army:

How does this work?

	Quote:	marton
	Britain must accept higher levels of immigration from India if it hopes to sign a free trade agreement after Brexit, a senior Indian diplomat has warned, as he predicted it could take up to a decade to secure the deal. Source No surprise really?

Good. Shared history, common language. Just send a CV first.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Good. Shared history, common language. Just send a CV first.

There is an implicit assumption here that a new trade agreement would only enable immigration by skilled immigrants.

	Quote:	marton
	Consequently it is no surprise that UK politicians in the Brexit negotiations are failing; maybe they should have given lead roles in these Brexit negotiations to the Civil Service?

The reason they're failing has little to do with the Government, and everything to do with the fact they're dealing with an organisation that is incapable of negotiating. All they can do is make demands.

	Quote:	marton
	There is an implicit assumption here that a new trade agreement would only enable immigration by skilled immigrants.

It will. You really think the UK would allow free movement between India and the UK?

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It will. You really think the UK would allow free movement between India and the UK?

Without free movement then there will be no trade agreement, May learnt this last November see here, "Immigration dominates Theresa May’s trade mission to India".

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The reason they're failing has little to do with the Government, and everything to do with the fact they're dealing with an organisation that is incapable of negotiating. All they can do is make demands.

So far the EU has negotiated trade agreements with some 80 countries so your claim that the EU is an organisation that is incapable of negotiating is a classic example of laughable prejudice and disinformation

	Quote:	marton
	Without free movement then there will be no trade agreement, May learnt this last November see here.

Let's see what happens when they get down to negotiating shall we? Free movement will never be on the table. Not when there's a population deficit of 1.25 billion. I sometimes wonder on what planet you live on.

	Quote:	marton
	So far the EU has negotiated trade agreements with some 80 countries so your claim that the EU is an organisation that is incapable of negotiating is a classic example of laughable prejudice and disinformation

Oh yes, how could I forget those economic power houses of Tunisia, Lebanon and Chile? Where's the agreements with China? Japan? USA? Brazil? Australia? Russia? India? Basically, the countries where it's really worth making a trade agreement with?

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Oh yes, how could I forget those economic power houses of Tunisia, Lebanon and Chile? Where's the agreements with China? Japan? USA? Brazil? Australia? Russia? India? Basically, the countries where it's really worth making a trade agreement with?

You agree then the EU successfully negotiated Trade agreements with 80 countries so so your claim that the EU is an organisation that is incapable of negotiating is nonsense?
Perhaps you are able to explain the relevance of the three countries that you quoted out of the 80 existing agreements.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Let's see what happens when they get down to negotiating shall we? Free movement will never be on the table. Not when there's a population deficit of 1.25 billion. I sometimes wonder on what planet you live on.

I saw what happened when they got down to negotiating, look at the link I quoted!

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	marton
	Britain must accept higher levels of immigration from India if it hopes to sign a free trade agreement after Brexit, a senior Indian diplomat has warned, as he predicted it could take up to a decade to secure the deal. Source No surprise really?

... and now India is being irrational as well, just like the EU. Why does everybody have to be so mean? This is all so unfair!

	Quote:	marton
	You agree then the EU successfully negotiated Trade agreements with 80 countries so so your claim that the EU is an organisation that is incapable of negotiating is nonsense? Perhaps you are able to explain the relevance of the three countries that you quoted out of the 80 existing agreements.

Oh, I can name some more countries if you wish. The economic juggernauts of Algeria, Albania, Jordon, Moldova, Ukraine, the Faroe Islands... Look how good the EU is at negotiating with countries on when an even standing!

	Quote:	marton
	I saw what happened when they got down to negotiating, look at the link I quoted!

But you keep reminding us the UK isn't allowed to negotiate trade agreements until they've left the EU. Make your mind up, won't you?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Remember all those Leave lies? The side of the Bus? Well here is what chief Remain campaigner Nick Clegg had to say on the prospect of a European Army:

There are good proposals for greatly increased cooperation. That is not the same as a European army.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	But you keep reminding us the UK isn't allowed to negotiate trade agreements until they've left the EU. Make your mind up, won't you?

Nope. They can't conclude trade agreements. They can talk as much as they like - although when you watch Boris in action you might wish otherwise.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Oh, I can name some more countries if you wish. The economic juggernauts of Algeria, Albania, Jordon, Moldova, Ukraine, the Faroe Islands... Look how good the EU is at negotiating with countries on when an even standing!

Cherry picking countries like these without any logical basis for your choices destroys your own argument?
You could mention countries like Canada, Norway and Switzerland but that would leave your argument in tatters?
Or for the coup de grâce look at the map below of EU trade agreements.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	But you keep reminding us the UK isn't allowed to negotiate trade agreements until they've left the EU. Make your mind up, won't you?

Actually it was May (you know, the PM) who trotted off to India to try to start Trade discussions, not me. Do try to keep up with the facts at the back of the class there

	Quote:
	There are good proposals for greatly increased cooperation. That is not the same as a European army.

Watch what happens next. And listen to the language of Federica Mogherini's speech. This should concern people. Aside from the fact it's compromises the neutrality of several EU States, no one has had a vote on whether they want this to happen.

	Quote:	marton
	Cherry picking countries like these without any logical basis for your choices destroys your own argument? You could mention countries like Canada, Norway and Switzerland but that would leave your argument in tatters? Or for the coup de grâce look at the map below of EU trade agreements.

Oh wow, 3 countries in the top 30 ranked by GDP. And Norway and Switzerland are already part of EEA/EFTA. Your map proves nothing. In fact, of the World's top economies, the EU has an unratified agreement with Canada, that's it.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Watch what happens next. And listen to the language of Federica Mogherini's speech. This should concern people. Aside from the fact it's compromises the neutrality of several EU States, no one has had a vote on whether they want this to happen. Oh wow, 3 countries in the top 30 ranked by GDP. And Norway and Switzerland are already part of EEA/EFTA. Your map proves nothing. In fact, of the World's top economies, the EU has an unratified agreement with Canada, that's it.

Stop trying to move the goal posts again, GDP ranking is irrelevant.

My map proves the EU has agreements with over 80 countries so your claim the EU cannot negotiate is disproved.

	Quote:	marton
	Stop trying to move the goal posts again, GDP ranking is irrelevant.

The Groundskeeper Returns!

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Oh wow, 3 countries in the top 30 ranked by GDP. And Norway and Switzerland are already part of EEA/EFTA. Your map proves nothing. In fact, of the World's top economies, the EU has an unratified agreement with Canada, that's it.

A small country is much more likely to want an agreement than a big one. How many of those countries have free trade agreements with each other, and which?