The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[pdofr]

'Sacrificed on the altar of trade': Britons in EU feel betrayed by Brexit deal

	Quote:
	British nationals living in mainland Europe say they are alarmed by claims that their rights have been protected by the Brexit deal sealed by Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker. One Briton, Ingrid Taylor, who is settled in Germany, described claims that their rights were now guaranteed as “a barefaced lie”. Brexit impacts on the future lives of an estimated 1.2 million Britons settled in mainland Europe, most of them working. They have accused May and Juncker of sacrificing them in the rush to sign off phase one of Brexit talks. Taylor said that she believes the European commission has started to use British people in the rest of the EU as “bargaining chips” in reaction to the “intransigent stance” Theresa May took on EU citizens living in the UK. “After what happened on Friday, the anger has risen,” she said. “We feel betrayed, we feel anger, we feel we have been sacrificed on the altar of trade.” One of the biggest fears of such Britons is that they will remain “landlocked” in the country in which they now live, unable to move across borders to work for meetings, or for business contracts.

	Quote:	pdofr
	'Sacrificed on the altar of trade': Britons in EU feel betrayed by Brexit deal

	Quote:
	One of the biggest fears of such Britons is that they will remain “landlocked” in the country in which they now live, unable to move across borders to work for meetings, or for business contracts.

Just like you can't travel now to Osaka, or Dubai, or Seoul, or Port Harcourt, or Singapore, or Istanbul, or New York or ... for meetings and business contracts.

The stupid. It burns.

[pdofr]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Just like you can't travel now to Osaka, or Dubai, or Seoul, or Port Harcourt, or Singapore, or Istanbul, or New York or ... for meetings and business contracts. The stupid. It burns.

Get back under yer bridge.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The stupid. It burns.

As far as I'm aware, the way things currently stand, UK passport holders who reside in an EU country cannot move to live and work in another EU country. So if your employer in Frankfurt, decides to relocate your team to Paris, you're screwed.

This situation isn't final, but along with so many other issues, it's not currently being addressed fully and correctly. It astounds me that there is still no movement by the Brexit team on the Open Skies Treaty. We now have Easyjet Europe and Easyjet UK because the government have done nothing to protect the travel industry.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	As far as I'm aware, the way things currently stand, UK passport holders who reside in an EU country cannot move to live and work in another EU country. So if your employer in Frankfurt, decides to relocate your team to Paris, you're screwed.

Just like now if your team gets relocated to Singapore or the US. It happens all the time, and there's always ways around it.

No one back in the UK particularly cares about British nationals living in the EU. The vast majority of whom are booze ridden expats living in Spain and France who've turned their back on the country for a better life for themselves. If you make that choice then you have to accept the risks.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	As far as I'm aware, the way things currently stand, UK passport holders who reside in an EU country cannot move to live and work in another EU country. So if your employer in Frankfurt, decides to relocate your team to Paris, you're screwed. This situation isn't final, but along with so many other issues, it's not currently being addressed fully and correctly. It astounds me that there is still no movement by the Brexit team on the Open Skies Treaty. We now have Easyjet Europe and Easyjet UK because the government have done nothing to protect the travel industry.

You forgot Easyjet Switzerland, they fly the more planes out of GVA than anyone else. Establishing subsidiaries is really nothing new.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The vast majority of whom are booze ridden expats living in Spain and France who've turned their back on the country for a better life for themselves. If you make that choice then you have to accept the risks.

This is about business and how business operates, not people who've retired to the Costas. The proposed deal is unequal, therefore, wrong. It bites the IT, banking and travel sectors hard, therefore the consequences are high for UK business futures.

I don't know a single booze ridden expat in Spain or France, but I do know a hell of a lot of UK people who've lived in 2 or more EU countries over the past decade, purely because of their employers' business demands. One of my cousins worked for a telecoms company in the training division. In the last 15yrs, she's lived and worked in South Africa, Argentina, Germany, the Netherlands & Italy. Another friend plans and fits the IT systems on ships and cruise liners. In the last decade, he's lived in Finland, Germany and Italy. The current 'deal' actively prevents British workers from doing that.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You forgot Easyjet Switzerland, they fly the more planes out of GVA than anyone else. Establishing subsidiaries is really nothing new.

I didn't forget anything. From my last Easyjet email...

	Quote:
	Just to let you know your flight EZY1812 will be with easyJet Europe Airline. We have operating airlines in the UK, Switzerland and more recently in Austria so that we can fly across Europe. Legally we have to let you know which airline is operating your flight. easyJet Europe Airline is part of the easyJet group and as such you will experience the same friendly and high quality service. easyJet Customer Services

Switzerland isn't an EU country (in case you forgot), but there was no need for easyjet Europe Airline under the Open Skies Treaty prior to the referendum.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Just like now if your team gets relocated to Singapore or the US. It happens all the time, and there's always ways around it. No one back in the UK particularly cares about British nationals living in the EU. The vast majority of whom are booze ridden expats living in Spain and France who've turned their back on the country for a better life for themselves. If you make that choice then you have to accept the risks.

But unlike their European counterparts, they will have to deal with the sort of red tape beaurocracy that non EU and other nationals have to deal with. If you are happy to queue for hours in the line with all the other non EU foreigners, then its good news for you. Personally I will miss being part of an open border multicultural society. But there you go, my choice didn't win the vote.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	But unlike their European counterparts, they will have to deal with the sort of red tape beaurocracy that non EU and other nationals have to deal with. If you are happy to queue for hours in the line with all the other non EU foreigners, then its good news for you. Personally I will miss being part of an open border multicultural society. But there you go, my choice didn't win the vote.

Honestly speaking, I think open borders was one of the few things that the EU got right, I'd be happy if a post Brexit deal saw them stay. The best solution would be if the UK adopted the Swiss immigration policy regarding EU nationals.

The issue is that many voted for Brexit with a view to curbing immigration, so this will likely be a red line for the government negotiators.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Switzerland isn't an EU country (in case you forgot), but there was no need for easyjet Europe Airline under the Open Skies Treaty prior to the referendum.

Switzerland based airlines can fly to the EU, perhaps you forgot Switzerland has an airline called Swiss that will still be able to fly to Europe after Brexit. So there was no NEED for Easyjet Europe as it could all have been run out of Switzerland. If you look at the code on the Planes, the Easy Jet Switzerland ones were previously registered in the UK under the UK airline.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The issue is that many voted for Brexit with a view to curbing immigration, so this will likely be a red line for the government negotiators.

Thats speculation, people voted to leave, why they voted leave we don't know.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Switzerland based airlines can fly to the EU, perhaps you forgot Switzerland has an airline called Swiss that will still be able to fly to Europe after Brexit. So there was no NEED for Easyjet Europe as it could all have been run out of Switzerland. If you look at the code on the Planes, the Easy Jet Switzerland ones were previously registered in the UK under the UK airline.

Easyjet subsidiarys are more likely there for tax reasons then ease of access to European Airports. I doubt Brexit will have huge implications on the aviation industry as most national carriers will be registered in their country of origin, it might just mean that charter companies relocate headquarters out of Britain to other EU countries.

It may have been cheaper for Easy Jet to register it Swiss fleet in the UK or perhaps the Isle of Man. But I guess as Easy jet planes hop from route to route that they cross over all of their subsidiary territory.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	But unlike their European counterparts, they will have to deal with the sort of red tape beaurocracy that non EU and other nationals have to deal with. If you are happy to queue for hours in the line with all the other non EU foreigners, then its good news for you. Personally I will miss being part of an open border multicultural society. But there you go, my choice didn't win the vote.

Most of you are too young to remember what it was like before. I remember queuing at Heathrow- in a very long line of non-EU passengers- whilst OH and baby where in a different short queue- and then had to wait ages for me to cross. Remember the days before the EU, when it was impossible to get a job in the UK unless, like me- you had contacts and they would apply on your behalf and make a special case to employ you. Of all my contemporaries who went to work in London in pre EU - I am the only one who got a 'proper' job- and didn't have to come as an Au Pair or to a Language School.

Today I am beyond disgusted with Corbyn and the labour Party. Starmer said they would vote for the amendment today- but Corbyn wipped them into line and only a few had to guts to stand up.

https://www.libdemvoice.org/vince-la...med-56118.html

Just 40 Labour MPs voted in support the Single Market Amendment. All Labour front benchers abstained, having told MPs to abstain too. Lib Dems, Greens, SNP and even a few Conservative MPs voted for it so it had a chance of passing if Labour had backed it. I am really angry- gutless opposition - no opposition indeed.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	So there was no NEED for Easyjet Europe as it could all have been run out of Switzerland. If you look at the code on the Planes, the Easy Jet Switzerland ones were previously registered in the UK under the UK airline.

You don't get it...

	Quote:
	But from the day Britain leaves the EU, on 29 March 2019, there is currently no framework for flying between the UK and Europe. Airlines and airports are concerned that a post-Brexit treaty must be signed swiftly to allow them to plan for the summer of 2019.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/...-a8027126.html

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	So there was no NEED for Easyjet Europe as it could all have been run out of Switzerland.

Cabotage is forbidden under the Bilaterale, flights within any one country (say, Zürich-Geneva by Lufthansa or München-Frankfurt by SWISS) by a non-Swiss or Swiss airline, respectively.

So yes, there was a need for Easyjet Europe.


And of course there's still the issue of UK-EU airtraffic, which can't be planned for at the moment and will come to a full stop unless a solution is found. Depending on how airlines react, this must have been done by summer next year if ordinary planning procedures are to be followed, otherwise they may be forced to plan for letting the affected personnel go.

[pdofr]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Cabotage is forbidden under the Bilaterale, flights within any one country (say, Zürich-Geneva by Lufthansa or München-Frankfurt by SWISS) by a non-Swiss or Swiss airline, respectively. So yes, there was a need for Easyjet Europe.

And for those who, like me, didn't know the meaning of the English word "cabotage":

cabotage | ˈkabətɑːʒ, ˈkabətɪdʒ |
noun [mass noun]

the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.

• restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.

ORIGIN
mid 19th century (in the sense ‘coastal trade’): from French, from caboter ‘sail along a coast’, perhaps from Spanish cabo ‘cape, headland’.

[amogles]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	it might just mean that charter companies relocate headquarters out of Britain to other EU countries.

I had the impression that many of the charter airlines were already registered in places like Gibraltar. I don't know if those are just mailbox registrations (the aviation equivalent of Panama?) or whether they actually have significant staff levels there.

Gibraltar hey - ah well, may well remain in the EU... somehow - as part of Spain.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	And for those who, like me, didn't know the meaning of the English word "cabotage":

That's why I included a short explanation, along with an example.

	Quote:	pdofr
	And for those who, like me, didn't know the meaning of the English word "cabotage":

I was afraid it had to do with EU regulations on cabbage.