The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	The House of Lords has about 800 members, none of whom did you, or can you vote for, so that's not really a sensible metric for anything.

	Quote:	marton
	Yes we have been through this before and you still do not get it. Never mind, after Brexit we will be able to to vote for both the UK Prime Minister and the Queen - oh wait a minute....

I'd have away with both the House of Lords and the Monarchy tomorrow, unfortunately much of the UK disagrees. The problems in the UK go far deeper than Brexit, and Brexit should not be expected to solve them. All Brexit is is a step in the right direction. And the beauty of Brexit is that it'll stop people blaming the EU for problems that stem inside the UK. In short, if done properly, Brexit will create a country that is able to forge its own path and one that takes more accountability for itself.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I'd have away with both the House of Lords and the Monarchy tomorrow, unfortunately much of the UK disagrees. The problems in the UK go far deeper than Brexit, and Brexit should not be expected to solve them. All Brexit is is a step in the right direction. And the beauty of Brexit is that it'll stop people blaming the EU for problems that stem inside the UK. In short, if done properly, Brexit will create a country that is able to forge its own path and one that takes more accountability for itself.

You may be right, but I fear, as this thread shows in microcosm, it will just pit Brexiters and Remainers against each other for the next generation or so.
Murdoch 1 : 0 Britain.

[yacek]

	Quote:	marton
	That is why Brexit will cause Billions of extra costs for setting up UK Customs points if UK is not in the Customs union.

Outweighed by customs duties funding EU itself now?

https://youtu.be/Q9p2NZwOpJA

Port of Dover ...

It was btw not my idea to bring up the topic today, the UK Press and social media is full of the story. The French will not continue to uphold Le Touquet treaty and border checks in France unless we pas them large sums to do it.

The costs of the infrastruture and the land and all the upkeep and staffing at Calais, both ferry and tunnel, are massive. The Hôtel we always stop at overnight, and many others, are 50% occupied by CRS police from all over France (sort of equivalent of SAS- armed to the teeth and trained to shoot) - and this for several years.

[curley]

	Quote:
	https://youtu.be/Q9p2NZwOpJA Port of Dover ... It was btw not my idea to bring up the topic today, the UK Press and social media is full of the story. The French will not continue to uphold Le Touquet treaty and border checks in France unless we pas them large sums to do it. The costs of the infrastruture and the land and all the upkeep and staffing at Calais, both ferry and tunnel, are massive. The Hôtel we always stop at overnight, and many others, are 50% occupied by CRS police from all over France (sort of equivalent of SAS- armed to the teeth and trained to shoot) - and this for several years.

Amazing they did it for free so far!
After all, it's not that they desperately want to keep those heading for GB in their country

The more info I get, the more obvious it gets how GB profited (utilised?) from their EU partners.

[marton]

	Quote:	curley
	Amazing they did it for free so far! After all, it's not that they desperately want to keep those heading for GB in their country The more info I get, the more obvious it gets how GB profited (utilised?) from their EU partners.

The UK voluntarily voted to move from a position of strength to one of weakness.
Now everybody else is trying to turn the situation into a profit for them, no free lunches!

BTW it is not new, Macron said during his election campaign he would tear up the Le Touquet agreement.

[curley]

	Quote:	marton
	The UK voluntarily voted to move from a position of strength to one of weakness. Now everybody else is trying to turn the situation into a profit for them, no free lunches! BTW it is not new, Macron said during his election campaign he would tear up the Le Touquet agreement.

Aaaw, I'm in tears, mate.

Actually they went straight from colonialism to EU, did they?
I'm beginning to think they won't survive. Maybe they should stay in.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It is a problem, but a problem that can be solved. Brexit was never going to be easy but the end result will make any pain worthwhile. I guess people like you still can't see this as another example of why people voted Brexit in the first place. In the last 40 years so much of running the country has been outsourced to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who want nothing more than to control and regulate every single aspect of your miserable life. Nobody was ever asked if they want a customs port in Rotterdam, nobody was ever asked if they wanted to hand over trade negotiations to the EU, nobody was ever asked if they wanted to have the "four freedoms" of the EU...

Sorry but that is just jingoism.

Now one and a half years after the Referendum can you point to any real tangible Brexit benefits (end results) that we can all touch and feel.

To put it in a simple way in the EU new laws are drawn up by civil servants in Brussels then reviewed by both Houses of the UK Parliament, approved by the EU Parliament, the EU Commission and the Council of Europe.

After Brexit new UK laws will be drawn up by civil servants in Whitehall then approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Queen. I really do not see a big difference but I am open to being convinced.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	BTW it is not new, Macron said during his election campaign he would tear up the Le Touquet agreement.

I'm not sure he would even have a choice. There are provisions in the treaties to allow for such agreements between member states and a specific provision to allow for the CTA between Ireland and the UK. But there is no general provision to allow for such an agreement with a third country.

At some point the treaty will need to be amended if they CTA is to continue, so perhaps something like that will happen at the same time.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

French have been threatening to tear up the treaty for years. Old news.

This from back in May.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ouquet-treaty/

This is French posturing again. We already pay £80 million and coughed up another £20 milllion for additional fencing. Since most of these migrants have presumably ditched their passports/identity documents they won't be able to buy tickets and board boats to the UK since it's simply enough to require this online or at the booking office at the port. The infrastructure is already in place so France can't say it's going to cost more to set up.

Plus I assume once we leave the EU we are not bound by the Dublin Agreement while France still is so if they want to send the migrants elsewhere it would be back to Italy or Greece or wherever they first entered the Schengen Area.

the fencing is one thing- the staffing by 100s of security guards, police and CRS (SAS style), 24/7 - including accommodation cost, etc- is quite another.

The Channel is very narrow at that point - you don't need a ferry to cross...The French won't 'send them' - they will find a way to come ...

	Quote:	marton
	Now one and a half years after the Referendum can you point to any real tangible Brexit benefits (end results) that we can all touch and feel.

The U.K. still hasn’t left the EU, it will take years until the tangible benefits are visible. However, this all depends on the type of Brexit that takes place.

	Quote:	marton
	To put it in a simple way in the EU new laws are drawn up by civil servants in Brussels then reviewed by both Houses of the UK Parliament, approved by the EU Parliament, the EU Commission and the Council of Europe. After Brexit new UK laws will be drawn up by civil servants in Whitehall then approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Queen. I really do not see a big difference but I am open to being convinced.

The difference being that Civil servents will be drawing up legislation with only Britain’s interests in mind. Not some Walloon dairy farmer, or some French Foie Gras producer or some German car manufacturer.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	T The difference being that Civil servents will be drawing up legislation with only Britain’s interests in mind. Not some Walloon dairy farmer, or some French Foie Gras producer or some German car manufacturer.

My guess is that a principle here is that you should get more engagement from the populace, more involvement, and more skin in the game. Without it, when decisions are made somewhere else for them, there is a sense of detachment, and so they mentally check out of the process, and politically disengage. This shows up at the community level as well, and people start detaching and neglecting their communities.

I think self-determination encourages more personal engagement with one's own community.

	Quote:	Phos
	My guess is that a principle here is that you should get more engagement from the populace, more involvement, and more skin in the game. Without it, when decisions are made somewhere else for them, there is a sense of detachment, and so they mentally check out of the process, and politically disengage. This shows up at the community level as well, and people start detaching and neglecting their communities. I think self-determination encourages more personal engagement with one's own community.

This isn't going to happen though, Britain is a representative democracy, the people will have no more input into future British laws than they did into previous EU laws.

	Quote:
	This isn't going to happen though, Britain is a representative democracy, the people will have no more input into future British laws than they did into previous EU laws.

Whether or not it happens is a choice of its people. It does in fact happen in varying degrees. It is more likely to happen when there is a sense voices at the community level can be heard at the legislative levels.

It is less likely to happen when people at the community level realize they will never be heard in Brussels.

Believe it or not, not everyone in Europe floats around like a vagrant. Some people actually consider where they live to be their place and home. Europhiles seem to have trouble with this and fail to respect it.

	Quote:	Phos
	Whether or not it happens is a choice of its people. It does in fact happen in varying degrees. It is more likely to happen when there is a sense voices at the community level can be heard at the higher levels. It is less likely to happen when people at the community level realize they will never be heard in Brussels. Believe it or not, not everyone in Europe floats around like a vagrant. Some people actually consider where they live to be their place and home. Europhiles seem to have trouble with this and fail to respect it.

Sorry, this is all irrelevant flim-flam.

Unless Britain changes its system of government, then no, none of the stuff you wrote makes any difference whatsoever.

What you wrote is at best speculative and is currently incorrect.

	Quote:
	Sorry, this is all irrelevant flim-flam. Unless Britain changes its system of government, then no, none of the stuff you wrote makes any difference whatsoever. What you wrote is at best speculative and is currently incorrect.

I think you fail to realize the importance of this aspect of a democratic society. This does in fact happen today. I was watching a PMQ where representatives brought up their community concerns with the Prime Minister. That does not happen in Brussels.

Of course, this would be totally irrelevant to you if you do not have such a place you would call your community or home.

	Quote:	Phos
	I think you fail to realize the importance of this aspect of a democratic society. This does in fact happen today. I was watching a PMQ where people's representatives brought up their community concerns with the Prime Minister. That does not happen in Brussels.

Of course it happens in Brussels. What do you think Farage was doing with fishing quotas for example? He was voicing UK community concerns.

	Quote:
	No, but it does already happen in the UK as you allude to above. So Brexit makes zero difference to this process.

If the government is powerless in changing something due to hindrance by Brussels, there is no point in exercising this. So British sovereignty makes an absolute difference to this point.

	Quote:
	This isn't going to happen though, Britain is a representative democracy, the people will have no more input into future British laws than they did into previous EU laws.

	Quote:
	Unless Britain changes its system of government, then no, none of the stuff you wrote makes any difference whatsoever.

	Quote:
	Of course it happens in Brussels. What do you think Farage was doing with fishing quotas for example? He was voicing UK community concerns.

Your contradiction here indicates you are not really thinking this through.