The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[baboon]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Ahh yes, bollocks. I’m sure the Graun just prints stuff it wants to be true when it comes to Brexit. Government insists UK will leave customs union

Is this the same government that insists there will be no hard border in Ireland? There has to be one or the other and both sides know this.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	baboon
	Is this the same government that insists there will be no hard border in Ireland? There has to be one or the other and both sides know this.

Most Swiss borders are pretty soft, most of the time.

[baboon]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Most Swiss borders are pretty soft, most of the time.

...but still what, for the purpose of Ireland, is regarded as a hard border.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Most Swiss borders are pretty soft, most of the time.

What have Swiss borders to do with Brexit? Are you suggesting that the UK will be like Switzerland? Switzerland is in the center of Europe and there is a lot of transit through the country that generates a lot of money for the economy. It's smaller population means its somewhat harder for immigrants to enter and work unoticed. A hard border in Ireland would for obvious reasons cause a lot of friction for the people of NI and Ireland, a soft border makes the whole idea of the rest of the UK having hard borders a tad redundant.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	I’ve read the Guardian for more than 40 years, but the quality of its journalism over Brexit has plunged it to a new low, IMO. Even the pro-Brexit Telegraph carries frequent opinion pieces representing the other side of the argument. The Times, anti-Brexit, has regular articles from Brexiteers. By contrast, the Guardian refuses to accept the possibility that there may be alternative views, and the paper has been wall-to-wall anti-Brexit since the start of the campaign — and continues to be so. Quite abusive and irrational at times. Any anti-UK utterance from any EU politician, no matter how insignificant, is turned into a news story to push its agenda. Very disappointing. I don’t mind them having an editorial slant, but it would be good if they could at least acknowledge that there may be other perspectives.

Actually there are a few. Not many I grant (probably on a level with the Telegraph for pro remain) but this from a couple of weeks ago for example:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ft-progressive

Anyway, do you now appreciate how difficult it is to get actual intelligent pro-Brexit articles? Plenty of swivel-eyed loon stuff available but that isn't the Graun's thing.

Although thinking about it, you can find plenty of swivel-eyed stuff in the comments.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	What have Swiss borders to do with Brexit?.

None, but it does show SOFT customs borders are possible with the EU & a non EU country. Some people are able to learn from other similar situations, others need it spelt out, not surprisingly the people who cant work it out are anti-change.

[baboon]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	None, but it does show SOFT customs borders are possible with the EU & a non EU country. Some people are able to learn from other similar situations, others need it spelt out, not surprisingly the people who cant work it out are anti-change.

Albeit a non-EU country that is in both Schengen and the Single Market. Just not customs union.

Again, the issue for the Irish (and written into the Good Friday agreement I believe) is the presence of any sort of permanent border control.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	None, but it does show SOFT customs borders are possible with the EU & a non EU country. Some people are able to learn from other similar situations, others need it spelt out, not surprisingly the people who cant work it out are anti-change.

But its the Brexiteers that are insisting on hard borders. But we cant really compare the UK to Switzerland, its a larger land mass it has about 10x the population and a much more complex social political history.

[dandi]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	But its the Brexiteers that are insisting on hard borders.

I wouldn't put that on one particular group. Hard border is a reality that has to be imposed if there is no customs union. Without a customs union you have to have border checks to enforce trade rules and prevent traffic. No practical way around it.

And BTW, the border between CH and the surrounding EU is not a soft border - it's a hard border. Anything that crosses the border is subject to customs checks, taxes and tariffs on both sides. I'm talking only trade traffic, not people

	Quote:
	But we cant really compare the UK to Switzerland, its a larger land mass it has about 10x the population and a much more complex social political history.

I don't see really that much difference really... Size is not that much the issue, and I can't see why you would call the Swiss socio-political history anything but complex either....

The Swiss analogy can be written differently
- the Swiss have a hard border with the EU
- the Swiss have to accept free movement of people from EU to have free trade with EU

Now the UK wants:
- no hard border
- no free movement of people and
- free trade with EU

Good luck figuring that one out....

[marton]

The House of Lords handed the government its third defeat over Brexit in less than a week, voting down plans to exclude European Union rights from national law before Britain leaves.

Source

The never ending story!

[BaselLife]

Hi

It is great to see the Lord's doing their job which the commons failed to do. Let's hope the commons supports the Lords and goes further and the UK at least stays in the single market. After the dark times of that last 2 years there is finally a light at the end of the tunnel.

Have fun
Martin

	Quote:	BaselLife
	Hi It is great to see the Lord's doing their job which the commons failed to do. Let's hope the commons supports the Lords and goes further and the UK at least stays in the single market. After the dark times of that last 2 years there is finally a light at the end of the tunnel. Have fun Martin

The Lords doing the same job they have been for centuries in ignoring the wishes of the plebs

Remind me never to vote for a Lord again.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

I think the Lords do play a vital part, often taking a longer view of things than the Commons does.

However, EVERYONE needs to realise that staying in the single market isn't happening. The EU have said time and time again the UK can't cherry pick - it's all or nothing. Clean your ears out people and LISTEN! Too much time is being wasted on this sort of thing while the real negotiations flounder because of no clear vision of what the UK wants post Brexit.

[BaselLife]

Hi

We could stay in the single market as long as we play for the rules. Another way is the best deal possible which is to remain in the EU

All the best

Martin

[Medea Fleecestealer]

Best deal possible? No it isn't. That's why we voted Leave.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	dandi
	And BTW, the border between CH and the surrounding EU is not a soft border - it's a hard border. Anything that crosses the border is subject to customs checks, taxes and tariffs on both sides. I'm talking only trade traffic, not people

Which reminds me of the vast lorry park being built in Kent, which will eventually lead everyone onto the UK's biggest car park...the M25. If you've ever commuted between Jct 14 and 10 on a Thursday after 5pm, you'll know exactly what I mean. It's like turkeys voting for Thanksgiving and Christmas to become weekly events.

[pdofr]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Thank you for your answer, blueangel. I always thought that after all, UK didn't benefit too much from being a member of the EU (and not only me) so it is only logical they'll push for a "divorce". But what I'm reading here from quite a few of you, is that apparently it would be a mistake. Then please, make me understand why the Labour or the Conservatives couldn't be bothered to make a proper, honest Remain campaign and they too thought they would force EU's hands a little by playing the bad cop, good cop, who understands anything these days.

The super mega rich appear to have a vested interest in seeing regulations relaxed, so they can get on with more plundering.

Unfair comment? See the following BBC documentary series (on Youtube) from 1999:

The Mayfair Set (1999)
Four stories about the rise of business and the decline of political power
Adam Curtis

The Mayfair Set episode 1- Who Pays Wins.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234H8X1-JiA

The Mayfair Set episode 2 - Entrepreneur Spelt S.P.I.V.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsgJIpYreis

The Mayfair set episode 3 - Destroy the Technostructure.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwkbA9NJy9g

The Mayfair Set episode 4 - Twilight Of The Dogs.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdQ3ztGk0D4

	Quote:	greenmount
	Look, here's is the young, impetuous and a good orator that Farage always was, in..1992!!!! Since the Treaty of Maastricht..He and his UKIP were harping on UK's "Independence" i.e. "Out of EU" idea since then. It was a constant, concentrated anti-EU campaign that nobody did much about it, at least this is how I interpret things. They must be really good politicians because they used everything in their favour to reach their agenda. They probably made some victims along the way, but ends always justify the means...right? Right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouf51S5z8qw

As I posted somewhere upthread Farage had links with the super rich all along.

Can’t stand that aggressive head/whole body nod of his myself.

	Quote:	BaselLife
	We could stay in the single market as long as we play for the rules. Another way is the best deal possible which is to remain in the EU

If the UK stays inside the single market and customs union without being a member of the EU it rather defeats the object of Brexit.

[FrankZappa]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If the UK stays inside the single market and customs union without being a member of the EU it rather defeats the object of Brexit.

Oh dear, what a shame

[BaselLife]

Hi,

look at Norway and Switzerland and it shows you can enjoy the benefits of the EU but without the voting rights. We leave the political part of the Eu but benefit from the trading rights. The best deal is to remain members and the second best to be an EFTA country. The worse outcome is no deal at all.

All the best
Martin