The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Chuff
	we both have better things to do with our time than engage in online fisticuffs.

I don't.

[BaselLife]

Let's hope she votes for the Lord's amendments and brings the end of Brexit closer. That at least would be a silver lining

[baboon]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	The Windrush scandal probably wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for British membership of the EU. By insisting that the United Kingdom gives immigration priority to every Tomas, Dionysios and Heinrich from Kiruna to Koprivshtitsa, the EU has unwittingly (?) created a ridiculously unwelcoming environment for our brothers and sisters from the Commonwealth....

Not true. And repeating something you said a few months ago which wasn't true then doesn't make it any truer now.

The single market gives EU citizens the right to live and work in the UK. It is up to the UK if it chooses to extend those rights to commonwealth citizens or not. The fact that it chooses not to do so is not the fault of the EU.

As for "brothers and sisters from the Commonwealth" - sorry but laughable. You mean those people whose countries the UK overtook by force and imposed British rule on whether they wanted it or not?

As Blackadder said, "When I joined up, we were still fighting colonial wars. If you saw someone in a skirt, you shot him and nicked his country."

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	baboon
	You mean those people whose countries the UK overtook by force and imposed British rule on whether they wanted it or not?

Yes, I do mean those people. Those people to whom the United Kingdom surely owes some moral responsibility which it doesn't owe to anyone from Romania or Estonia or Sweden.

And of course the EU is partly responsible for the Windrush scandal. Successive British governments have felt pressure to restrict immigration. They can't restrict it from Europe, so they have to restrict it from elsewhere - just like the Swiss do. You've seen the threads on EF - there are enough of them!

By giving priority to EU immigrants, it naturally follows that non-EU immigrants are penalised. That's how priorities work. Have you never queued up for an Easyjet flight?

[marton]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Yes, I do mean those people. Those people to whom the United Kingdom surely owes some moral responsibility which it doesn't owe to anyone from Romania or Estonia or Sweden. And of course the EU is partly responsible for the Windrush scandal. Successive British governments have felt pressure to restrict immigration. They can't restrict it from Europe, so they have to restrict it from elsewhere - just like the Swiss do. You've seen the threads on EF - there are enough of them! By giving priority to EU immigrants, it naturally follows that non-EU immigrants are penalised. That's how priorities work. Have you never queued up for an Easyjet flight?

"Successive British governments have felt pressure to restrict immigration." Do you have a source for this?

Incidentally Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom are the only EU countries that do not apply the EU-wide rules which relate to immigration, visa and asylum policies.

Source
http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-...ional-rules_en

[baboon]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Yes, I do mean those people. Those people to whom the United Kingdom surely owes some moral responsibility which it doesn't owe to anyone from Romania or Estonia or Sweden. And of course the EU is partly responsible for the Windrush scandal. Successive British governments have felt pressure to restrict immigration. They can't restrict it from Europe, so they have to restrict it from elsewhere - just like the Swiss do. You've seen the threads on EF - there are enough of them! By giving priority to EU immigrants, it naturally follows that non-EU immigrants are penalised. That's how priorities work. Have you never queued up for an Easyjet flight?

Strangely Spain, also members of the EU, seem to be perfectly able to accept immigration from its former colonies.

Plus if you bother to look at Martin's earlier graph it is very clear that the UK accepts many more non -EU immigrants than EU over the years.

And as for the EU being partially responsible for Windrush, an event with its roots in the 50s....sorry but that is truly laughable.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	baboon
	Strangely Spain, also members of the EU, seem to be perfectly able to accept immigration from its former colonies. Plus if you bother to look at Martin's earlier graph it is very clear that the UK accepts many more non -EU immigrants than EU over the years. And as for the EU being partially responsible for Windrush, an event with its roots in the 50s....sorry but that is truly laughable.

It's right and proper that the UK accepts more non-EU immigrants than EU. I'm not disputing that. The fact remains, however, that there is a deliberately instituted policy of a "hostile environment" which is partly a consequence of being locked into this idiotic "free movement of people" principle in the EU. The fact that it is easier for any random German or Italian or Greek to move to the United Kingdom than people from Jamaica or Pakistan or Australia is patently absurd, even if there are more of the latter in terms of sheer numbers.

And what have the 1950s got to do with anything? The Windrush scandal is a recent event - beginning with the "hostile environment" policy mentioned above. The poor buggers who are being shafted by the Home Office at the moment were left pretty much unmolested until the Free Movement of People business kicked in.

Sure, the Tories have buggered this up big time (what a surprise!), but to pretend that non-EU residents in the United Kingdom are not having a hard time partly as a consequence of uncontrolled immigration from the EU is, as you say, laughable.

[marton]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	It's right and proper that the UK accepts more non-EU immigrants than EU. I'm not disputing that. The fact remains, however, that there is a deliberately instituted policy of a "hostile environment" which is partly a consequence of being locked into this idiotic "free movement of people" principle in the EU. The fact that it is easier for any random German or Italian or Greek to move to the United Kingdom than people from Jamaica or Pakistan or Australia is patently absurd, even if there are more of the latter in terms of sheer numbers. And what have the 1950s got to do with anything? The Windrush scandal is a recent event - beginning with the "hostile environment" policy mentioned above. The poor buggers who are being shafted by the Home Office at the moment were left pretty much unmolested until the Free Movement of People business kicked in. Sure, the Tories have buggered this up big time (what a surprise!), but to pretend that non-EU residents in the United Kingdom are not having a hard time partly as a consequence of uncontrolled immigration from the EU is, as you say, laughable.

"The Windrush scandal is a recent event" The Windrush generation came to the UK after World War II and under the 1948 Nationality Act were automatically entitled to UK citizenship. The scandal is and was that the UK Govt. failed to ensure on their arrival that these people were given the correct documents to prove their entitlement.

The Free Movement of People (FMOP) business kicked in due to the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992 so it is too much of a stretch to try to link it to the current scandal.

As you say many more people immigrate to the UK from non EU countries so claiming they have a problem due to FMOP is flying in the face of facts. In fact there was a big increase in non-EU immigrants during the twenty years following Maastricht, currently the number of non-EU immigrants per year is more than double the 1992 level.
Here is another graph

[lewton]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	And what have the 1950s got to do with anything? The Windrush scandal is a recent event - beginning with the "hostile environment" policy mentioned above. The poor buggers who are being shafted by the Home Office at the moment were left pretty much unmolested until the Free Movement of People business kicked in.

BS.
FMOP existed for decades before May's hostile environment policy.

[marton]

Sort of on topic

Roche President Christoph Franz warns that loss of EU bilaterals with Switzerland would cause large job losses in Switzerland
Source (German language)

[lewton]

	Quote:	marton
	Sort of on topic Roche President Christoph Franz warns that loss of EU bilaterals with Switzerland would cause large job losses in Switzerland Source (German language)

I can't wait for it to happen.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	lewton
	I can't wait for it to happen.

And why would you want to wish job losses on people, many of who are on these boards??? Your hatred of the EU is such that you'd like to see people financial well being just so you can have a bit of satisfaction... A rather sad little individual in my mind.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	And why would you want to wish job losses on people, many of who are on these boards??? Your hatred of the EU is such that you'd like to see people financial well being just so you can have a bit of satisfaction... A rather sad little individual in my mind.

Lewton is actually very pro-EU.

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	The Windrush scandal probably wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for British membership of the EU. By insisting that the United Kingdom gives immigration priority to every Tomas, Dionysios and Heinrich from Kiruna to Koprivshtitsa, the EU has unwittingly (?) created a ridiculously unwelcoming environment for our brothers and sisters from the Commonwealth. But, no. It's the Brexit-voters who are all racist. Not the EU. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SYwV9034kM

It’s bonkers. You even had Sadiq Khan saying he’d back preferential treatment of EU migrants post Brexit. I wonder if he still reckons he’d be mayor or even in the country if EU citizens had been given preferential treatment 60 years ago.

https://twitter.com/pestononsunday/s...22383357243392

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Lewton is actually very pro-EU.

Pro EU and can’t read judging by his last two contributions to this thread.

[marton]

Today the seventh Lords defeat for the government on the EU withdrawal bill, effectively prevents Britain crashing out of the EU with no deal.
The cross-party amendment was supported by 19 Tory rebels, winning by a majority of 91.
Source

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Sure, the Tories have buggered this up big time (what a surprise!), but to pretend that non-EU residents in the United Kingdom are not having a hard time partly as a consequence of uncontrolled immigration from the EU is, as you say, laughable.

I'd love to know how you work that one out. As my OH has both EU and Commonwealth passports, I can easily check this. I did actually check this with one of the Embassy team after the recent Roadshow, and what he told me doesn't back up your statement one iota.

[pdofr]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	The fact that it is easier for any random German or Italian or Greek to move to the United Kingdom than people from Jamaica or Pakistan or Australia is patently absurd, even if there are more of the latter in terms of sheer numbers.

It's a reciprocal agreement whereby any UK citizen is free to move to Germany or Italy or Greece or other EU country.

That right simply does not exist for UK citizens wishing to move to Jamaica or Pakistan or Australia.

It's only recently that moves have been made by India to allow foreigners a majority holding in Indian companies, which really sticks in the craw given the easy access they have been given to the UK job market.

And for what it's worth, I have lived in a Commonwealth country and had to to through the immigration process there. It was far from automatic.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Lewton is actually very pro-EU.

Still not a good reason to go wishing bad sh*t on people.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	The fact that it is easier for any random German or Italian or Greek to move to the United Kingdom than people from Jamaica or Pakistan or Australia is patently absurd, even if there are more of the latter in terms of sheer numbers.

No it absolutely is not. It is exactly the consequences of a single market - the very definition involves the free movement of all elements of production and that includes labour. There is no difference between the EU single market and that operate in the UK itself or any other member state. I can't see why people in the UK should think that the EU single market must operate under a different set of rules to the UK market or the market in any other member state for that matter.

If we were to apply your logic to the UK market then there is no reason why labour from say Scotland should be able to move freely to Northern Ireland, or from Wales to England and so on in preference to labour from say Jamaica, Pakistan or where ever. And yet people seem to thing that is fine, but when they come to the EU single market it is not. That is the absurd part - expecting two single markets to operate under different rules.

The bottom line is that you are either in a single market with all that requires or you are not. You cannot be in a single market and then exclude one of the elements of production, that is not how it works. And none of the other players are going to agree to let you do so.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	No it absolutely is not. It is exactly the consequences of a single market - the very definition involves the free movement of all elements of production and that includes labour. There is no difference between the EU single market and that operate in the UK itself or any other member state. I can't see why people in the UK should think that the EU single market must operate under a different set of rules to the UK market or the market in any other member state for that matter. If we were to apply your logic to the UK market then there is no reason why labour from say Scotland should be able to move freely to Northern Ireland, or from Wales to England and so on in preference to labour from say Jamaica, Pakistan or where ever. And yet people seem to thing that is fine, but when they come to the EU single market it is not. That is the absurd part - expecting two single markets to operate under different rules. The bottom line is that you are either in a single market with all that requires or you are not. You cannot be in a single market and then exclude one of the elements of production, that is not how it works. And none of the other players are going to agree to let you do so.

How very Tory. No wonder the buggers were always so pro-EU. Bollocks to sovereignty and culture. People are just "labour" to be moved around like cattle or bars of soap or cabbages.

Lovely. I really do hope Brexit goes through. It won't, of course. But we can hope.