The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Not really since some EU countries have no means of holding referendums, their constitutions don't allow them.

Is a referendum the only way to make a decision on whether to leave the EU? Of course not. It wasn't even the mechanism by which the UK left. We had an advisory referendum, after which parliament voted to leave.

Come on guys and gals, this stuff is pretty basic.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	greenmount
	It doesn't matter why, how, what for etc. etc. people voted for Brexit. I guess each had their own motives. But this is how democracy functions and it's annoying to see that quite a while after the vote there are still voices who oppose the normal course of action following it. Shouldn't we all have the grace or elegance to accept it and move on?

Well there are a couple of things to consider here, first of all what is the normal course of action as you call it? The UK has a sovereign parliament and so the referendum was and can only ever be advisory. The people voted in favour of BREXIT that is true. But they were also asked to give the government the necessary majority to carryout BREXIT at a General Election and the failed to do so. They also failed to give the Labour versions of BREXIT a mandate either. So while we can conclude that the majority are or were in favour of BREXIT it is till unclear as to exactly what the voters want.

As for how democracy functions, it functions according to the laws agreed in that country, not the rules we would like it to have. In the UK that means that the final decision should rest with the parliament elected by the people not the outcome of a referendum. No matter how annoying you may find that. And of course voters are fully entitled to make representations to the members of parliament as often as they which in the hope of persuading the MPs to vote in a certain way. That is how their democracy works.

As for your idea that people cannot campaign for change just because the vote went against them, is in itself undemocratic. The electorate is entitled to reconsider it's decisions and change it's mind as often as it likes. You cannot place a limitation on the process.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Chuff
	How did the UK people have a legal mechanism to 'force' a vote to leave the EU? Cameron called it of his own volition, didn't he?

He promised a vote, and was therefore aruably elected into power on the back of that promise.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Indeed, the irony being it was advisory and in no way a legally binding vote.

And a repetition of the vote would be similarly non binding.

	Quote:	amogles
	And a repetition of the vote would be similarly non binding.

Irrelevant non-sequitor, but OK.

I'd still like you to confess your error and admit that every EU country has exactly the same opportunity to leave the EU that Britain had, so we know you fully understand the situation and can take your opinion seriously. I fear you don't like admitting when you are wrong though and might continue to keep talking at tangents such as this.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	amogles
	He promised a vote, and was therefore aruably elected into power on the back of that promise.

That is not even remotely the same principle as a: 'legal mechanism to force a vote on the matter'.

Cameron only called a referendum because he was a limp-wristed milksop who wanted to curry favour with the masses. He never even for an instant considered that the vote would actually cause the UK to leave the UK, and by then it was too late. He had the choice of either losing every shred of credibility he had and stopping a train wreck, or actually keeping his word and following through on an action that he fully knew would have potential serious long-term negative implications for the country. He chose the easy way out... for himself.

Brexit basically came about as a result of nothing more noble than one man's insecurity who decided to go all in at poker with a shit hand.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	I'd still like you to confess your error

ah yes, so cute.

not to admit an "error", to confess one and ask for your almighty forgiveness for not sharing your opinion? On which planet to do think we are living?

	Quote:
	and admit that every EU country has exactly the same opportunity to leave the EU that Britain had, so we know you fully understand the situation and can take your opinion seriously. I fear you don't like admitting when you are wrong though and might continue to keep talking at tangents such as this.

So in your view I have the choice between

1) admitting i am wrong, in which case you will take me seriously (as if)
2) defending what I said previosuly, in which case I am going on a tangent.

In other words, you are saying you only take people seriously who agree with you?

What then is the point of debating?

In contrast to you, I am magnanimously prepared to take you seriously even if you don't confess to all the times you disagreed with me.

Ironic, innit?

	Quote:	amogles
	ah yes, so cute. not to admit an "error", to confess one and ask for your almighty forgiveness for not sharing your opinion? On which planet to do think we are living? So in your view I have the choice between 1) admitting i am wrong, in which case you will take me seriously (as if) 2) defending what I said previosuly, in which case I am going on a tangent. In other words, you are saying you only take people seriously who agree with you? What then is the point of debating? In contrast to you, I am magnanimously prepared to take you seriously even if you don't confess to all the times you disagreed with me. Ironic, innit?

It is a shame when people put ego above fact, but not hugely surprising.

If you could tell me where you have defended your point, I would be delighted to listen, but again, you have written nothing but a large email of deflecting and projecting but with little to no correcting.

So once more, my point for you to refute: The EU does not stop any country from voting (as often as they want) on membership. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

P.S. Thanks for not groaning last time, a refreshing change. Perhaps there is yet hope for a civil debate.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Chuff
	He never even for an instant considered that the vote would actually cause the UK to leave the UK,

I don't believe he was that stupid, he fully knew the risks but thought leaving was unlikely.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I don't believe he was that stupid, he fully knew the risks but thought leaving was unlikely.

What I meant was he didn't believe the vote would go against him, not that the vote in itself couldn't cause the UK to leave the EU.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	And a repetition of the vote would be similarly non binding.

You don't know, the parliament can make it binding.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	You don't know, the parliament can make it binding.

I thought they already did.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	I thought they already did.

If they had they wouldn't have voted on the matter after the public poll.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	If they had they wouldn't have voted on the matter after the public poll.

Which made it binding so yes, they did.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	It is a shame when people put ego above fact, but not hugely surprising. If you could tell me where you have defended your point, I would be delighted to listen, but again, you have written nothing but a large email of deflecting and projecting but with little to no correcting. So once more, my point for you to refute: The EU does not stop any country from voting (as often as they want) on membership. Please provide evidence to the contrary. P.S. Thanks for not groaning last time, a refreshing change. Perhaps there is yet hope for a civil debate.

You're moving goalposts and you know it. But don't worry. I'm not going to ask you to confess anything. Not in public.

As for putting ego before fact. Even the thought of asking people to confess they were wrong rather than admit they were wrong ahows you are all about ego in this debate. Glass houses and throwing stones and all that.

The EU does not stop any country from voting, but there are countries where constitutional restrictions prevent a vote. The EU does not have a problem with that.

As for civil debate versus groaning, you'll find you are the one who led the race to the bottom.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Which made it binding so yes, they did.

It didn't. What was and is binding is the parliament's vote ordering the government to invoke §50.

In addition, the parliament will have the final say on the government's proposition (whatever that may effectively mean as the choice appears to be between accepting the deal that the government struck and no deal at all. There's no option amounting to "we don't like the result so let's forget about it altogether").

	Quote:	amogles
	and why should the Uk be the only EU country that gets to vote about its membership every few years? Let's raise the game and have everybody vote. What are you afraid of?

As we've now established, this is patently false. The UK is not the ONLY EU country that gets to vote. They all do if they so wish.

	Quote:	amogles
	The EU does not stop any country from voting.

Thank you for your admission / confession*

*delete as appropriate.

For everyone else in the debate, this is a call to James O'Brien on all of the issues we're discussing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXOu3U_CbpU

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Thank you for your admission / confession* *delete as appropriate.

	Quote:	amogles
	The EU does not stop any country from voting, but there are countries where constitutional restrictions prevent a vote. The EU does not have a problem with that.

is so totally different from.

	Quote:	amogles
	Wrong. Most EU countries have no legal mechanism to force a vote on the matter.

But yeah, whatever rocks your boat.

More piffle paffle and frippery. You are a scientific miracle, you may be the only substance known to man more slippery than PTFE. Answer the question...

	Quote:	amogles
	and why should the Uk be the only EU country that gets to vote about its membership every few years?

Is this true, or a lie?

[amogles]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	It didn't. What was and is binding is the parliament's vote ordering the government to invoke §50. In addition, the parliament will have the final say on the government's proposition (whatever that may effectively mean as the choice appears to be between accepting the deal that the government struck and no deal at all. There's no option amounting to "we don't like the result so let's forget about it altogether").

Parliament rarely just accepts a bill and rarely jumps straight into the yes or no part of the vote.

There are always debates, and from debates can come re-drafts.

Whether or not that wil amuse Brussels is another question of course.