The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Troublawesome]

I suggest all potential Leavers take a hard good look at this video and the facts and decide what freedom of movement, freedom to work and European solidarity means to you. If £188m per week is the real problem when the UK spends £3.6bn per week just on pensions and £2.6bn on the NHS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-36419806

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	If £188m per week is the real problem when the UK spends £3.6bn per week just on pensions and £2.6bn on the NHS.

But it's not the "real problem". Not for me.

For me, it's a very rare opportunity to reboot the nation. I fully accept there are risks involved. But there are risks involved in Remain. I'm hoping that the UK has the self-confidence to do what about 150 other nations and their populations across the globe do -- cooperate with, trade with, travel around, and like, Europe, without feeling the need to enter into statutory political, economic and legal arrangements.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	I suggest all potential Leavers take a hard good look at this video and the facts and decide what freedom of movement, freedom to work and European solidarity means to you. If £188m per week is the real problem when the UK spends £3.6bn per week just on pensions and £2.6bn on the NHS. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-36419806

You'd still have freedom to move, work and have solidarity with European countries when not part of the EU.

[MidfieldGeneral]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	But it's not the "real problem". Not for me. For me, it's a very rare opportunity to reboot the nation. I fully accept there are risks involved. But there are risks involved in Remain. I'm hoping that the UK has the self-confidence to do what about 150 other nations and their populations across the globe do -- cooperate with, trade with, travel around, and like, Europe, without feeling the need to enter into statutory political, economic and legal arrangements.

This is what I really don't get. Who is going to re-boot the Nation? A right wing Tory party under Gove, IDS, Boris etc who hate the NHS and who hate 'welfare scum' or beige suited Jezza Corbyn and his 'make the state bigger' bunch?

[Troublawesome]

	Quote:	Mikers
	You'd still have freedom to move, work and have solidarity with European countries when not part of the EU.

No you won't, UK clearly said they'll impose dozens of limits and quotas to EU countries and so will the other EU countries do as well.

Work permits, visas etc will be required. That is the opposite of free.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Mikers
	You'd still have freedom to move, work and have solidarity with European countries when not part of the EU.

And on what bases do you expect that to happen, which treaties or commitments from EU states are you referring? or is just wishful thinking.

Right now the only option that would allow such a situation would be membership of the EEA is that what you are referring to?

[lewton]

If after Brexit the UK decides to keep allowing no-barrier entry to all Irish citizens (from the Republic of), can Ireland allow no-barrier entry to all Northern Irish citizens?
In other words, can the two sides of the island keep pretending there is no border between them?
Or will the EU not allow Ireland to do such a thing?

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	And on what bases do you expect that to happen, which treaties or commitments from EU states are you referring? or is just wishful thinking. Right now the only option that would allow such a situation would be membership of the EEA is that what you are referring to?

You will have freedom to move to France, on holiday, or as a visitor.

You'll have freedom to get a job in France, probably in the same way we all came here, by getting a job and a work visa.

You'll not stop feeling a solidarity with Europe, whether you only consider that valid if you are part of a special little club is up to you.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	No you won't, UK clearly said they'll impose dozens of limits and quotas to EU countries and so will the other EU countries do as well. Work permits, visas etc will be required. That is the opposite of free.

No one has the authority at this stage to say that quotas and visas and permits will be required. These are decisions yet to be made after much debate, no doubt. The fact is that we didn't need visas to travel round Europe before we joined in 1973, and we still don't need visas to travel to many countries in the world.

[Mikers]

Absolutely disgraceful stuff from Cameron this morning on the Andrew Marr show and in the Telegraph basically blackmailing pensioners that if they don't vote in he could slash their pensions. Terrible terrible stuff from a politician.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Absolutely disgraceful stuff from Cameron this morning on the Andrew Marr show and in the Telegraph basically blackmailing pensioners that if they don't vote in he could slash their pensions. Terrible terrible stuff from a politician.

Totally - I actually just switched over to another news channel, couldn't bear listening to him. Funnily enough, I had no problem listening to Farage before Cameron came on

Farage seems to be on a roll am.. and as pointed out in this thread a few pages back, even a clock is right twice a day.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Absolutely disgraceful stuff from Cameron this morning on the Andrew Marr show and in the Telegraph basically blackmailing pensioners that if they don't vote in he could slash their pensions. Terrible terrible stuff from a politician.

Agreed. I've always been a very reluctant supporter of Cameron -- essentially because everyone else seems even worse. But his performance today has totally trashed his credibility. If the boot was on the other foot (as in the general election campaign last year), he would be bashing the table and stating that whatever happened, the pensioners would be protected. But because the elderly are known to be more inclined to support Brexit, he is now openly threatening to reduce their pensions if they don't vote the way he wants.

It's gutter politics from a gutter politician who clearly, will now stop at nothing to avoid the humiliation of being sacked as PM, and forever known as the man who presided over a Brexit.

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	Work permits, visas etc will be required. That is the opposite of free.

Yep, but technically possible. I was a student and young workforce in Norway before Schengen. I just had to accept to be treated like shit by immigration office rather than getting the permits sent by mail, but I could study and then work there like I wanted. It's a question of money, work contract and like I just said: fake smile at the arrogant idiot you might encounter at the immigration office after hours and hours in the waiting room with the rest of the world. That's all.

The question is more complex for businesses and export/import industry. I actually don't know if the city will be even more free to stay the centre of tax evasion in Europe with all the off shore finance organized from London outside of the EU or not... some experts will be better informed that I am.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	You will have freedom to move to France, on holiday, or as a visitor. You'll have freedom to get a job in France, probably in the same way we all came here, by getting a job and a work visa.

Nonsense.

British industries have universally been cutting their travel budgets since 2008 as far as possible. The cost of needing visas and work permits to allow their employees to work on European assignments will be astronomical and hit their budgets very hard. Add to that, the time delay in deploying staff to European locations when you need them.

Have you ever seen the debarcle employees need to go through just to visit Russia on a work trip? Anything even approaching that would demolish many company's travel budgets.

	Quote:	lewton
	If after Brexit the UK decides to keep allowing no-barrier entry to all Irish citizens (from the Republic of), can Ireland allow no-barrier entry to all Northern Irish citizens? In other words, can the two sides of the island keep pretending there is no border between them? Or will the EU not allow Ireland to do such a thing?

it won't be an option legally at present. Obviously, this won't happen overnight, but the legal land barriers will be the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, and Dover rather than Calais. In effect, this could reverse some hard fought terms of the Irish peace process and move the Calais Jungle to Dover.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Nonsense. British industries have universally been cutting their travel budgets since 2008 as far as possible. The cost of needing visas and work permits to allow their employees to work on European assignments will be astronomical and hit their budgets very hard. Add to that, the time delay in deploying staff to European locations when you need them. Have you ever seen the debarcle employees need to go through just to visit Russia on a work trip? Anything even approaching that would demolish many company's travel budgets.

An extraordinary attempt at scaremongering. Are you seriously suggesting there will be a Russia-style visa requirement for travel between the UK and EU countries post-Brexit? Apart from Russia and China and some African countries the world is virtually visa-free for British passport holders. There is no reason whatever for this to change for visitors. Whether work permits will be needed isn't something that's been discussed, as you well know, so the suggestion that the cost of these mythical things will be "astronomical" is just a mischievous fabrication.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	An extraordinary attempt at scaremongering.

Not at all. If I was going to scaremonger (which is the exact opposite of my personality) I'd insist we're headed to WWIII

The scaremongering in this campaign is coming from Brexit conspiracy theorists rambling on incessantly about us being ruled by people we didn't elect. Having spent the last two weeks back in the UK, I'm completely and utterly disgusted by the entire leave campaign and everything they're saying. It's way beyond smoke and mirrors. It's downright treasonable.

I can't count the number of times people have told me...
"But we could be like Switzerland"
"No you couldn't!"

or...
"It's all the EU laws that piss me off"
"Name one! Just one!"
"Errr....." *silence and lots of head scratching*

or...
"And what about all the immigrant workers taking our jobs?"
"Can you give me one occassion where you've lost your job to an immigrant worker?"
"Err no but..."
"You won't know what's hit you when a million or so British workers have to come back from living and working in Europe. They'll really take your jobs."

Murdoch media, Gove (sponsored by Murdoch) and Buffoon two faced Johnson are scum. Have you all really forgotten this from Boris?

How does this work?

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Not at all. If I was going to scaremonger (which is the exact opposite of my personality) I'd insist we're headed to WWIII

As indeed Cameron actually claimed

	Quote:	Blueangel
	The scaremongering in this campaign is coming from Brexit conspiracy theorists rambling on incessantly about us being ruled by people we didn't elect.

You chose a bizarre example there because that's surely one of the things we can actually agree is a plain fact -- that EU laws emanate from the Commission, which is indeed unelected.

To describe the scaremongering as coming from the Leave side is quite disgraceful. At least have the integrity to admit that neither side has covered itself in glory. I don't think it's fair for Leave to use the gross £350m figure for the amount we pay per week. The net figure of around £250m is quite enough. And the threat of Turkey joining seems remote.

But in the Project Fear stakes, the Remain side reigns supreme, with its warnings of economic collapse, terrorist armageddon, threat of World War 3, the end of low-cost airlines, visas needed to travel in mainland Europe, 3 million job losses, a cost to each household of £4,300 by 2036 (ha ha!!), the end of education exchanges, taking 15 years to strike trade deals, being at the back of the queue, having no influence in the world.... and worst of all, yesterday, this grisly rabbit that Cameron pulls from the hat -- that suddenly, now, people are liable to lose some of their pensions. This is the lowest of the low, and designed only to frighten elderly people into falling into line. If it was a genuine threat it would have been made 2 months ago, at the start of the campaign, and not left until 10 days before the vote. It's been a truly disgusting campaign by Cameron who is now crapping himself that if he loses the vote he will be thrown out.

As for the EU's influence on laws, to deny this is plain weird. They have a major influence on any trade or commerce-related laws. For instance, the Scottish government wasn't able to implement the law they passed to increase have minimum prices for alcohol. They were overruled by the EU.

	Quote:
	You chose a bizarre example there because that's surely one of the things we can actually agree is a plain fact -- that EU laws emanate from the Commission, which is indeed unelected.

....but is appointed by the respective (elected) national governments and has to be approved by the EU parliament and the laws proposed have to be passed by that wholly elected body.

Now remind me again - who elects the House of Lords?

	Quote:
	As for the EU's influence on laws, to deny this is plain weird.

Nowhere does Blueangel deny this. Merely (and correctly imo) that hardly anyone has the remotest clue what laws might be influenced.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Nonsense. British industries have universally been cutting their travel budgets since 2008 as far as possible. :

Do you have any link to this? or is this something someone said down the pub?
Many business meetings can & are done with Skype today even through air travel is now incredibly cheap, far cheaper than 40 years ago.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Nonsense. British industries have universally been cutting their travel budgets since 2008 as far as possible. The cost of needing visas and work permits to allow their employees to work on European assignments will be astronomical and hit their budgets very hard. Add to that, the time delay in deploying staff to European locations when you need them. Have you ever seen the debarcle employees need to go through just to visit Russia on a work trip? Anything even approaching that would demolish many company's travel budgets.

this is rubbish, placing people around the world happens all the time in any large corporations and will continue. Any other such statements are again just sweeping up the scaremongering. Look at it from a countries perspective: you think that France will suddenly introduce prohibitive visa costs for countries to make placements ? of course they wont.