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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #12441  
Old 16.07.2018, 10:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Since when were politics ever about something else than trade? Trump's idea of politics is making the US pick up economic growth. When you have that, you can start spending on what have you: culture, etc. You cannot protect anything without means. Some countries live with austerity measures built in in their cultures/history, CH is a prime example. And even here culture and diplomacy started being a priority only when there were actual funds to back them up. Funds first, then spending them wisely.
Trade wars do not pick up economic growth.

The law of unintended consequences is already striking with Harley, BMW and Tesla announcing plans to move production out of the US, probably many others doing this quietly?

Should we not discuss this in the Trump thread?

Last edited by marton; 16.07.2018 at 10:34. Reason: spelling
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  #12442  
Old 16.07.2018, 10:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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War? Migration? Alliances? Not everything can be condensed into your black and white view of the world, although this does explain the mindset of the Trump voter, it seems. Nuance is for communists.
Not sure what your idea is of a Trump voter nor do I think it matters for a debate.

Wars are always about economy, so is migration, alliances are always economical - it is fund sharing in order to strengthen the potential impact. I think 7 graders have that in hist/eco/law education back in CZ. Nobody in sane mind wants to permanently leave their home unless there are economical reasons (a base of EU existence, btw - make people wonder for a bit in a controlled way) or threat of death - wars and conflicts always start for economical reasons. The reason for Brexit I see mainly to be economical, nothing less nothing more. That reason alone is already important.
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  #12443  
Old 16.07.2018, 10:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not sure what your idea is of a Trump voter nor do I think it matters for a debate.
And yet over on the Hillary thread, there is a forensic analysis of the mindset, character and sanity of her voters so what's the difference?

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Wars are always about economy, so is migration, alliances are always economical - it is fund sharing in order to strengthen the potential impact. I think 7 graders have that in hist/eco/law education back in CZ. Nobody in sane mind wants to permanently leave their home unless there are economical reasons (a base of EU existence, btw - make people wonder for a bit in a controlled way) or threat of death - wars and conflicts always start for economical reasons. The reason for Brexit I see mainly to be economical, nothing less nothing more. That reason alone is already important.
That is scarily narrow minded, or are you just bending the definition of "economy".
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Old 16.07.2018, 11:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not sure what your idea is of a Trump voter nor do I think it matters for a debate.

Wars are always about economy
Good point, just as well there have never been any religious wars.
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  #12445  
Old 16.07.2018, 11:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good point, just as well there have never been any religious wars.
Actually, there haven't.
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Old 16.07.2018, 11:15
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The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I actually think people did not vote for Trump but against Hillary. Prople did not vote for Hillary but against Trump. This polarized stuff will probably change, Trump will have enough work (economical growth) to advertize himself better, he gained an advantage Hillary did not have. Brexit people voted against the EU, towards better economy and more independence. There are countries to take examples from - Scandinavia (poor foreign policy, will have economical problems, imho) and CH (autonomous foreign policy, steady economical growth). I cannot really see which way the UK is heading, it is complicated with really uneneven economical growth in different geo areas, I don't think going back to EU would fix that. People here complain how terrible life is there (schools, infrastructures worsening, funds for social projects), it seems to be a direct result of the previous leadership. The only way to fix it is through economical growth and that is the most solid through autonomy, not going back to EU who's priorities might not be those UK areas with poor living conditions and missing funding. EU in fact creates them, there is very little autonomy in local governing councils, global and federal oversight is the EU slogan. Not adjustments to particular local needs as it is here in CH. EU has actively destroyed some high quality standards to bring all members to even and slow mediocracy, irrespectively of particular needs of local areas. Globalisation is an economical idea, EU represents it and it kills local enterprises and local smart investments. Amazon is recruiting aggressively in CZ and Poland, it will kill that amazing little South Kensington bookstore I love to go to once a year and get us books and inhale them in the V&A Museum, between the opera rehearsals.
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  #12447  
Old 16.07.2018, 11:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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over on the Hillary thread, there is a forensic analysis of the mindset, character and INsanity of her voters
FTFY!

Tom
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  #12448  
Old 16.07.2018, 11:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I doubt an obscure back bench MP will influence anything; nice as a second referendum would be.
As it stands, no Brexit deal is getting through Parliament. Hard, soft, and everything in between will get voted down. Unless this changes then the call to take the vote "back to the people" will gain traction. Brexiteers need to be careful because they risk falling into the trap of saying "we can't trust the people this time around" (exactly what Remainers have been saying about the first referendum), and also that people get so sick about Brexit that in a second referendum they say it isn't worth the effort vote to Remain.
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Old 16.07.2018, 11:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I assume you mean the US is the logical choice, we speak the same language & our economy historically matches their ups & downs.
The Rule Book used in the EU was formulated with us and partly by us, in cooperation, over a long period of time. And in future, in the EU, we would have had a strong partner influence on any changes ...

are you telling me that the USA, or Russia, or China - or even India (s was made clear recently) - will allow us to rewrite the rule book ourselves, or in cooperation? Of course not- it will be imposed, no discussion. You want Trade Little Britain? Well this is what you have to do then... here is OUR rules.

We were strong partners in the EU, we will be vassals of the USA or anyone who is prepared to do Trade Deals - end of. That will include going to war for them as and when, agreeing to more army and nuclear bases on GB territory, etc. They say jump, and we will just have to jump.

We are so relieved that neither we, nor our children or grandchildren - will have to live under that Regime, for sure.
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  #12450  
Old 16.07.2018, 11:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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War? Migration? Alliances?
That too, is ultimately about trade and making money.
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  #12451  
Old 16.07.2018, 11:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As it stands, no Brexit deal is getting through Parliament. Hard, soft, and everything in between will get voted down. Unless this changes then the call to take the vote "back to the people" will gain traction. Brexiteers need to be careful because they risk falling into the trap of saying "we can't trust the people this time around" (exactly what Remainers have been saying about the first referendum), and also that people get so sick about Brexit that in a second referendum they say it isn't worth the effort vote to Remain.
Again, if there is obstructionism, it is motivated economically. The particular reasons that people obstruct for are driven by somebody's profit and it needs to show. I do not think that things get obstructed just because somebody is all of a sudden prioritizing the UK youth and their chance for a decent EU university - because the same people have voted in exorbitant local uni fees.

EU is an awesome idea if it worked as it was theoretically planned. There are many theories, though, that are not applicable. It is only the numbers game at the end, and how happy people are in those small forgotten local areas.
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  #12452  
Old 16.07.2018, 11:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

MC, the Trump voters I know in the US, voted because they hated immigrants (which they of course are themselves - but that totally does not register with them)... and because they would pay less tax. Yes, 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who arrived as kids very very poor, living in slums - and now have made it big and don't want to share any.
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Old 16.07.2018, 11:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The Rule Book used in the EU was formulated with us and partly by us, in cooperation, over a long period of time. And in future, in the EU, we would have had a strong partner influence on any changes ...

are you telling me that the USA, or Russia, or China - or even India (s was made clear recently) - will allow us to rewrite the rule book ourselves, or in cooperation? Of course not- it will be imposed, no discussion. You want Trade Little Britain? Well this is what you have to do then... here is OUR rules.

We were strong partners in the EU, we will be vassals of the USA or anyone who is prepared to do Trade Deals - end of. That will include going to war for them as and when, agreeing to more army and nuclear bases on GB territory, etc. They say jump, and we will just have to jump.

We are so relieved that neither we, nor our children or grandchildren - will have to live under that Regime, for sure.
I have always thought that the UK should have become a state of the USA, a country that has consistently outperformed the E.U.

Little Britain is bigger than you think..........but then you moved to Tiny Switzerland who voted not to join the E.U.
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Old 16.07.2018, 11:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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MC, the Trump voters I know in the US, voted because they hated immigrants (which they of course are themselves - but that totally does not register with them).
Nobody I know voted Trump because as you said they'd hate immigrants. Open door policy makes people hate immigrants. To the extent of paralel societies who share nothing, not even criminal law codex.

Less tax? How can a nincompoop assure economic growth while asking his citizens to pay less tax? He must know what he is doing. How low is the tax again in CH? Why are people enjoying the same liberties here that they are so hysterical about Trump? I could care less for an orange elephant in a chinashop, who parades a nice butt of his way younger Slavic wife, people will still think I support him. I don't care for him, I think he knows what he is doing, economically. More than Macron, May, Merkel. People will not own up for enjoying economical growth nor credit it to him or other conservatives, but they will vote for them. Why? Because with funds you can protect everything else that matters and that is traditionally important to people. Like here in Switzerland. May had it in her power for a brief moment. I don't even blame the UK for her troubles, she probably cave in to the EU threats.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 16.07.2018 at 13:22.
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  #12455  
Old 16.07.2018, 12:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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MC, the Trump voters I know in the US, voted because they hated immigrants (which they of course are themselves - but that totally does not register with them)... and because they would pay less tax.
You clearly know the wrong sort of people, none of the trump voters that I know voted for him for those reasons.

Tom
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Old 16.07.2018, 12:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You clearly know the wrong sort of people, none of the trump voters that I know voted for him for those reasons.

Tom
She knows Trump voters, of course she knows the wrong sort of people.
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Old 16.07.2018, 12:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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MC, the Trump voters I know in the US, voted because they hated immigrants (which they of course are themselves - but that totally does not register with them)... and because they would pay less tax. Yes, 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who arrived as kids very very poor, living in slums - and now have made it big and don't want to share any.
Awkward.
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Old 16.07.2018, 12:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This is why people on here should stop treating their anecdotal evidence as gospel.
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Old 16.07.2018, 12:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

There was a cartoon in Private Eye not too long ago about a second referendum. It was an image of a ballot paper with the question "Did you get it wrong the first time around?" and the answers "Yes" and "No". I think that sums it up pretty well, as I doubt that most people would admit to being wrong.
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  #12460  
Old 16.07.2018, 12:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Can we get back to Brexit. Its about Brexit people. Or are we just getting so confused that we should merge these two threads and throw in an immigration one while we are at it?
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