The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	She knows Trump voters, of course she knows the wrong sort of people.

yep, as they say, you pick your friends, not your family... and you don't pick your country of birth, and where your family will need you either.

[bowlie]

I don’t understand the discussion in Parliament about Chequeres . While clearly unacceptable to many Conservatives it also is unacceptable to the EU. It is clearly cherry-picking and trying to have a cake and eat it too.

A watered down version will be just less acceptable to the EU.

Time to rethink.

[Blueangel]

Wish someone would use 'economic' instead of 'economical' as the two words have totally different meanings.

Back to Brexit...

Has this tentative proposal got legs?
(Please follow the facebook link for a fuller post and some interesting comments)

	Quote:
	Robert Peston‏Verified account @Peston .@JustineGreening becomes powerful voice in favour of a further EU referendum, first mainstream Tory to do so - and savages @theresa_may’s Brexit plan https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2106515069673227/ … 2:15 PM - 15 Jul 2018

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1018604937457135621

[MusicChick]

There are a lot of powerful notions envolved, that are brought in to create emotions, collectively. It is not about cognitive bias, but about feeling something together. Trump is using the same schtick of course, as well, so are anti Trumps. You can feel it in any campaign, in Brexit, too. Economically, it is genius, just medially portray the oponent as hate worthy and you get a massive emotional response, and so cheap. One tweet.You use media, it increases their sales while you get voters on your side.

It is a manipulative mechanism that works in luxury it seems to me, only. A fad of ott emotions of those who can afford to feel first before counting their pennies. Those who cannot afford, come back to themselves, their independent reasoning and their own numbers, they will privately see how much things cost them, how much financial independence politicians bring them, in the end.

So the emotional response, the longing for feeling stuff together as oposed to thinking together...will tone down when numbers come home. Dry math is close to rational reasoning, far from reflexes manipulated by protesting and hysterics. Then one comes back to his own individual situation, spiritual quests and priorities and the mob groupthink is just considered mere socializing and etertainment. It is not for the poorest. They do their math at home, every single evening. Trump seems to give them better slogans though, economic growth, work, merit based chances, democracy. Whether that is true, these voters will see at home when they do their rational math. Not during marches and blowing baloons.

To be manipulated by massive and collective emotion doesn't last too long, it is exhausting. It is a human need. But I know a lot of people who need to think too, not just feel collectively. We also need to feel privately and I have a feeling that I find more honesty in productive slogans as opposed to negative campaign. Anything small scale seems productive easier than large and globalized. Separatists have a negative connotation, but maybe the UK needs to claim back their own identity and productivity.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	A fad of ott emotions of those who can afford to feel first before cluntibg their pennies.

WTAF??? Is this a covfefe moment?

Back to Brexit please!!!

[MusicChick]

Calm down.

BREXIT just had potus visit.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Calm down.

You can knock that talk on the head right now lady!

There's very serious shit going on r.e. Brexit today, yet some people are choosing to stiffle any serious debate of the matters at hand with their indecipherable psychobabble.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You can knock that talk on the head right now lady! There's very serious shit going on r.e. Brexit today, yet some people are choosing to stiffle any serious debate of the matters at hand with their indecipherable psychobabble.

Isn't that Brexit's main negotiating tactic, though..?

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Calm down. BREXIT just had potus visit.

I am glad you find it funny- some of us are seriously affected, in 100s of ways, but what is going on in UK at present - your comment is totally OTT, and again, not fit for a Mod on EF. 100%. Cheap, so cheap indeed - for someone who is not and will not be affected or endure first hand ever.

For some of us, it is not just a joke or a simple war of (silly) words- as we have re-named John Cleese in this household).

[MusicChick]

Debate gets stiffled by aggressive outbursts.

Nobody is making you read stuff online that you don't understand.

I think BREXITERS are thinking more about the poorests. I think local funding will be more efficient (transparent, accountable) when avoiding EU global funding. Poor people have a better chance to pick up in an independent country, and they are also often the most rational about who brings real cash home and how fast. I think those organizing protests and marches are rich enough to get away from counting pennies at home. Potus came to support BREXIT, people just turned it into a socializing anti Trump/pro EU event when it was the EU that has put the UK in a hard position it is now.

Everybody is affected, at least everyone holding the EU passport. UK brexitting will support V4. UK leaving is not an insular event, that's why potus made the stop as well, on his way to Putin.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Isn't that Brexit's main negotiating tactic, though..?

Very true

Reading through some of the comments on Greening's proposal, and for the record, I'd be 100% against any referendum where the public have to choose their 1st and 2nd options of 3 offered, because this almost always results in the 2nd choice winning the ballot. In this case, I believe that would be interpreted as a vote to endorse May's white paper proposal, or whatever cobbled together version she comes back with.

However, again in the comments, it was suggested that a French style ballot where there was a second vote on 2 remaining options a week later, would force people to really consider their actions and not be political bystanders.

My issue with that, as with the original referendum, is that I believe there would be a very low turnout.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Very true My issue with that, as with the original referendum, is that I believe there would be a very low turnout.

More people voted than ever before in the UK in the referendum.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	More people voted than ever before in the UK in the referendum.

But do you honestly envisage them accepting a second referendum, particularly if it's the French style option?

I've always wanted a 2nd referendum, but not a 1st/2nd choice style. I believe the French style option is the best, but I don't see the British public welcoming it, and hiow would the postal ballot work?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But do you honestly envisage them accepting a second referendum, particularly if it's the French style option? I've always wanted a 2nd referendum, but not a 1st/2nd choice style. I believe the French style option is the best, but I don't see the British public welcoming it, and hiow would the postal ballot work?

UK does not do French style elections. France is ruled by lorry drivers who can legally block roads whenever they like, not by the government.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Calm down. BREXIT just had potus visit.

And he had this useful insight to offer on Brexit, so if you are in doubt that Trump has any understanding of the situation please no longer doubt that he has no f*ing clue!

How does this work?

FYI this is the daily mail edit, so a whole section of him wondering about heartbreaking (hard Brexit) is missing, I am not sure why they edited it out, maybe they like to give the idea Trump is not quite as moronic as he actually is.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Good point, just as well there have never been any religious wars.

	Quote:
	Actually, there haven't.

Conquest of the Levant: 634–641
Conquest of Egypt: 639–642
Conquest of Mesopotamia and Persia: 633–651
Conquest of Sindh: 711–714
Conquest of the Maghreb: 647–742
Conquest of Hispania and Septimania: 711–721

Then there were the Crusades.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	UK does not do French style elections. France is ruled by lorry drivers who can legally block roads whenever they like, not by the government.

What do you mean, like? Macron is so pretty!?

Obstructionists.

	Quote:	marton
	Conquest of the Levant: 634–641 Conquest of Egypt: 639–642 Conquest of Mesopotamia and Persia: 633–651 Conquest of Sindh: 711–714 Conquest of the Maghreb: 647–742 Conquest of Hispania and Septimania: 711–721 Then there were the Crusades.

Aw, bless your cotton socks.

Now log off wikipedia, go and read a history book, and stop acting like a precocious eight year old.

[marton]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	UK does not do French style elections. France is ruled by lorry drivers famers who can legally block roads whenever they like, not by the government.

ftfy

	Quote:
	your comment is totally OTT, and again, not fit for a Mod on EF.e

Without comment on the ongoing debate, folks should remember that a mod is just a entitled to post what they like as any other member.

So please (not you, Odile) no more reported posts just because a mod disagrees with you.