The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Good, so perhaps they'll start paying people living wages. Tom

That would require the supermarkets pay the farmer decent prices to start with and for consumer to be willing to pay higher prices as well. Demanding the farmer pays higher wages while at the same time expecting cheap prices in the shops is no an option

[amogles]

	Quote:	bowlie
	OK they put up their pay. They need then to put up their prices to Tescos et. al. Tesco then says our customers won’t pay any more, ‘screw you’ we can get it cheaper from ...

This is what they're doing now.

Traiffless trade is ultimately about finding a country where you can screw workers a bit more.

[amogles]

	Quote:	rainer_d
	i guess this would be possible, if people were willing to spend more on their food and spend less on cars, mobile phones, cable-tv, clothes, holidays, rent and general stuff ordered from amazon. If that happens, the world chinese economy will basically be f'ed.

ftfy

[amogles]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	That would require the supermarkets pay the farmer decent prices to start with and for consumer to be willing to pay higher prices as well. Demanding the farmer pays higher wages while at the same time expecting cheap prices in the shops is no an option

No shit?

Did you study economics or something?

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	amogles
	ftfy

Not exclusively. World economy relies mostly on people buying stuff they don't need at exaggerated prices, often with money they don't have (say "Hi" to Greece).

Politicians just keep kicking the can down the road, hoping it will keep on working like this until the next election.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I assume that was aimed at marton? Or are you going to show me a "fact" that proves there's been riots in Qatar due to food shortages?

As your original point was answering the possibility of food shortages in the UK I would have thought that that was issue enough. That there are food shortages seems unanswerable:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/06/m...eze/index.html
https://www.iiss.org/blogs/analysis/...ood-insecurity
https://www.dw.com/en/iran-delivers-...ges/a-39199194

History has repeatedly shown that where food is short unrest often follows (shortage, not famine).

[lewton]

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	This is what they're doing now. Traiffless trade is ultimately about finding a country where you can screw workers a bit more.

Or you have them easily come to you to get officialy underpaid, from the latest EU country. Hello EEs.

The whole EU project is all about this. Where there are holes in the jobs, we will quickly bring new and very motivated folks. Looks like another operational business model that is going on.

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Or you have them easily come to you to get officialy underpaid, from the latest EU country. Hello EEs. The whole EU project is all about this. Where there are holes in the jobs, we will quickly bring new and very motivated folks. Looks like another operational business model that is going on.

Only that EE benefitted from very rigorous education, especially in engineering (1). The newer sources of cheap labour don't really match that.

In other words, the pyramid scheme that tries to keep production costs down by continuously finding new sources of people willing to be exploited is going to run out of steam.

(1) My dad used to tell me the EE engineering textbooks were the best by miles and recommended that I learn at least one EE language just to read them.

[marton]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Or you have them easily come to you to get officialy underpaid, from the latest EU country. Hello EEs. The whole EU project is all about this. Where there are holes in the jobs, we will quickly bring new and very motivated folks. Looks like another operational business model that is going on.

Underpaid in their host country but highly paid versus their home country; the model seems to be they send money home or save money and then later return to their home country with a much better financial status.

Of course it is not only the EU that does this.

Poland has adopted the same model and there are ca. 1 million Ukrainians working in Poland so driving down the average wage in Poland.
The attraction of -- and for -- Ukrainian workers is clear: their pay back home averages 7,100 hryvnia ($265) a month, compared with 3,500 zloty ($1,046) in Poland.

However Poland are now getting worried about the continued availability of this cheap labour as the EU is making it easier for Ukrainians to enter the EU.
Source

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	Underpaid in their host country but highly paid versus their home country; the model seems to be they send money home or save money and then later return to their home country with a much better financial status. Of course it is not only the EU that does this.

They don't send that much money because everything is expensive in the countries they earn those money. When the do succede to do that it is at the expense of their health - they live in very difficult conditions provided by the employer, work many extra-hours, they miss out their children development and all this scheme to attract Eastern Europeans to jobs that are often under their qualifications has left a lot of dramas in their communities. I don-t agree with you that this story has only positive sides.

Secondly, lots of local businesses had gone down the drain because of the lack of qualified but also unskilled force labour in their native countries. What is better for a country - have their own economy or provide work force for others? In Romania for instance there is an acute worker crisis, I heard they employ people from countries like Vietnam, China, Bangladesh. Same EU companies who initially refused paying better salaries to the locals, but were then forced to bring in other people. It is a mess because it has multiple repercussions on the humane level, whereas you see people like merchandises and not as parents or children of someone. Do you want me to show you pictures with sad EE countryside babushkas waiting for the son and daughter that should have been their help when old? Neve never did it happen such a tragedy at this scale (empty villages), not even when we were under ruthless empires. Hmm, how do they say - the way to hell is paved with good intentions. But who cares about those ers, eh. Pardon my French.

Not to mention that, as EE even as a prestige immigrant you're always somehow looked down at, "yeah yeah you're OK but but you're from those countries ". C'mon, marton. Nobody is naive anymore. Unfortunately people are still trapped into this scheme due to more complexes issues. But it's sad, really sad, trust me. On a whole at least, not talking about particular cases. Don't bring me the argument how the West has saved us, no they took advantages of us in various degrees, usually according to some racist criteria.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Only that EE benefitted from very rigorous education, especially in engineering (1). The newer sources of cheap labour don't really match that. In other words, the pyramid scheme that tries to keep production costs down by continuously finding new sources of people willing to be exploited is going to run out of steam. (1) My dad used to tell me the EE engineering textbooks were the best by miles and recommended that I learn at least one EE language just to read them.

Yep. Engineering, medicine, pedagogy, sciences, philo, languages, technical stuff...pretty much all fields. It is still this way. Rigor doesn't get replaced by momentary fashion. People are inhaling books to get autonomous and self reliant. But not with the vision of having to deroot when you get your degree or certif.

How's yer EE language learning?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	amogles
	Only that EE benefitted from very rigorous education, especially in engineering (1). The newer sources of cheap labour don't really match that. In other words, the pyramid scheme that tries to keep production costs down by continuously finding new sources of people willing to be exploited is going to run out of steam. (1) My dad used to tell me the EE engineering textbooks were the best by miles and recommended that I learn at least one EE language just to read them.

During communism (and not only, but was really part of the development strategy), almost every EE country developed the so called technical and scientific education. The numbers of engineers from various generations that are working abroad now, many for a few decades already, can certify that. I don't know what you mean by newer sources, but you should defo info yourself more.
Even now, at least where OH works - the few engineer females are from Romania and Poland. None from WE. As of more recent years, most people looking into the technical part of edu are choosing computer science because it seems more lucrative, but the infrastructure for a good, solid technical higher education (and not only) is still there. Plenty of people from other places willing to study or have studied there, especially from ME, Africa. Two or three medicine universities from back home are attracting lots of students from other countries including EU countries, because that diploma still has a good reputation among people working in the field. Not the ivy league sort of reputation, of course, but it's OK, people are appreciated for their education. Now of course, getting ahead is a matter of multiple factors, but getting a job in a WE hospital is easy. Another issue - brain drain. And that is the worst, I think. As fulfilling or financially rewarding as it can be on a personal level, it's a catastrophe for the country that invests in your edu and then you leave for greener pastures.

So, to conclude...not really the best thing that could have happened to "poor"* countries.

*the funny part is that for instance my country is not really a poor country, it has plenty of natural resources that are exploited by others. Suddenly we're not able to do that anymore. The oldest enterprises in the country were taken over by companies that don't even care they leave a natural disaster behind. Welcome to Europe! Right.



Edit. Wasn't Ms. Merkel so happy to attract refugees from Syria? Syria too used to have a semi-socialist edu system that created loads of educated folks ready to fill in the WE vacancies. Always bring in some fresh blood, isn't it?

[marton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	They don't send that much money because everything is expensive in the countries they earn those money. ....

Depends what you call much money. My example was Poland who receive around 6 Billion euros per year, you mention Romania 3 Billion euros per year
Source

	Quote:	greenmount
	. Do you want me to show you pictures with sad EE countryside babushkas waiting for the son and daughter that should have been their help when old?

LOL!
Why don't we send EF colleagues pictures of their poor old parents since practically nobody in EF lives with their parents?
Fact is people move to where the work is, even Switzerland is full of old people whose children do not live at home.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Never never did it happen such a tragedy at this scale (empty villages), not even when we were under ruthless empires.

There are empty villages everywhere because people move to where the work is, nothing to do with the EU.
Calanca, Switzerland - deserted villages in an alpine valley
Spain gives away empty villages for free
Bled by emigration, abandoned Portuguese villages lose hope of surviving

Italy’s rural villages are dying out
Emigration and natural calamities have left 6,000 villages abandoned, with another 15,000 on the brink.

Cool! Let's piss all over your personal experience with lots of links I dug up on google!

	Quote:
	Cool! Let's piss all over your personal experience with lots of links I dug up on google!

Anecdotes vs statistics. I'll take the statistics.

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	How's yer EE language learning?

Approaching 20,000 points on Duolingo.

Still can't say shit when actually over there, so yeah.

	Quote:
	Anecdotes vs statistics. I'll take the statistics.

I'll take both, because neither can tell the full story.

But Marton's the kind of bloke who will (half-) listen to someone's account of surviving a plane crash by eating her fellow passengers and drinking her own urine then proceed to tell her how flying is the safest way to travel, while furiously googling for newspaper articles on his phone.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	I'll take both, because neither can tell the full story. But Marton's the kind of bloke who will (half-) listen to someone's account of surviving a plane crash by eating her fellow passengers and drinking her own urine then proceed to tell her how flying is the safest way to travel, while furiously googling for newspaper articles on his phone.

But of course only share statistics that support his POV.

... oh, and after listening to her tearfully telling the story for half an hour and seeing her prosthetic feet he'll pick up on the fact that she got the exact departure time wrong and tell her she made the whole thing up.

There's one in every pub.