The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[pingwing]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You are entitled to permanent residence status after five years

This is not an entitlement, it has to be approved via application.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	greenmount
	So back to Brexit because I think some will never understand my point....what happened? A couple of years ago most people here were pretty favourable to it and were sick of EU. Is losing all these privileges not all of us have by virtue of being an EU citizen such a scary perspective? Why? You either get your Swiss citizenship if you want to stay here for the rest of your life or get back to your home country when you don't have a job anymore due to retirement or unemployment or whatever. Now I get it that we all have kids or families and if they'll probably (naturally) choose CH over our home countries we'd like to stick around for them, but then again, everybody can travel relatively easily these days. EU didn't help me to get here, and it will definitely not be a reason to stay here. It's very confusing. What happened? I don't mean parnell and loz who should first check their facts. It was a general atmosphere.

Why pick out loz and parnell? Minority opinion holders need stricter standards? I think anyone should be able to post their opinion without having to "support" their opinions with complicated links or quickly googled (dubious) stats. I am glad that marton is toning down his quest for links.

What changed.. I often ask myself, how quickly popular opinions meander or even contradict themselves within threads, it is interesting.

I keep thinking about May's quiet meetings she just had with individual EU heads of states. Why the tour? What plea was she bringing them from the UK?

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think anyone should be able to post their opinion without having to "support" their opinions...

Another one tired of "experts" and "facts"? Opinion is much better.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	Another one tired of "experts" and "facts"? Opinion is much better.

I like the "data" you just posted.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I keep thinking about May's quiet meetings she just had with individual EU heads of states. Why the tour? What plea was she bringing them from the UK?

Maybe google it a bit. She had a meeting in France with Macron which was not kept quiet, it was all over the British press.

Other contact with other EU heads have similarly been reported.

[MusicChick]

Those are Brexit meetings, so I would obviously expect opinions on them in a Brexit thread.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Those are Brexit meetings, so I would obviously expect opinions on them in a Brexit thread.

Is that in response to my post? Don't know what you mean...

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	The situation is worsening: "Call for a ban on people eating dog meat in the UK" https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-45085514 Tom

That is UK law and not EU law. All these Brexiteers saying we have to take back our country and laws have no idea that we always had our own law. Including the right to shoot Welshmen with a crossbow in Chester.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Why pick out loz and parnell? Minority opinion holders need stricter standards? I think anyone should be able to post their opinion without having to "support" their opinions with complicated links or quickly googled (dubious) stats. I am glad that marton is toning down his quest for links. What changed.. I often ask myself, how quickly popular opinions meander or even contradict themselves within threads, it is interesting. I keep thinking about May's quiet meetings she just had with individual EU heads of states. Why the tour? What plea was she bringing them from the UK?

You're right, I shouldn't pick on them. What I really meant was that I know very well their opinions. And the ones of a few others too.

I'm more interested now in finding out why is this still a topic since at least to me things are clear - vox populis, vox dei...it won't affect anyone already here (most probably) and I don't understand the sudden support for EU. There were a few supportive voices before but now it looks like EU has gained more support once the membership is over or close to. I don't get it.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:
	Is that in response to my post? Don't know what you mean...

Perhaps those other meetings had nothing to do with Brexit. Maybe there is a bit of swinging going on in those "private meetings".

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	greenmount
	You're right, I shouldn't pick on them. What I really meant was that I know very well their opinions. And the ones of a few others too. I'm more interested now in finding out why is this still a topic since at least to me things are clear - vox populis, vox dei...it won't affect anyone already here (most probably) and I don't understand the sudden support for EU. There were a few supportive voices before but now it looks like EU has gained more support once the membership is over or close to. I don't get it.

Uncertainty? Russia?

I don't really know.. Well, independent states with local governments are more transparent, people more accountable.

It really is a bit same ol' for V4, crappy before the EU and only marginally less crappy with the EU. I think new members want more autonomy, old members don't want to lose globalized markets/cheap labor. The truth is, V4 nor Bulg, Romania and other states might never be considered equal in debates.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I like the "data" you just posted.

??

My last post on this thread was an unappreciated pun on eating dogs

[marton]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Uncertainty? Russia? I don't really know.. Well, independent states with local governments are more transparent, people more accountable. It really is a bit same ol' for V4, crappy before the EU and only marginally less crappy with the EU. I think new members want more autonomy, old members don't want to lose globalized markets/cheap labor. The truth is, V4 nor Bulg, Romania and other states might never be considered equal in debates.

The veto privilege endows all EU members with equal power in treaty negotiations
Source

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	greenmount
	You're right, I shouldn't pick on them. What I really meant was that I know very well their opinions. And the ones of a few others too. I'm more interested now in finding out why is this still a topic since at least to me things are clear - vox populis, vox dei...it won't affect anyone already here (most probably) and I don't understand the sudden support for EU. There were a few supportive voices before but now it looks like EU has gained more support once the membership is over or close to. I don't get it.

Sadly Britains exit from the EU will most likely go ahead. But a lot of people who originally supported the idea (of leaving) have come to realise that the information they were sold on and their original understanding of what advantages the EU brought to the UK was underestimated and far outweighed the negatives including the financial cost of it all. These truths have emerged during negotiations and have been reported, whatever the spin on them has been, the revelations are out.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I keep thinking about May's quiet meetings she just had with individual EU heads of states. Why the tour? What plea was she bringing them from the UK?

There is noting quiet about these and other meetings, they are well publicised. And if you read some of this publicised information you'd understand what is going on. Do a bit of proper research before posting and stop trying to bend the facts that would make your posts might become credible.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	...Do a bit of proper research before posting and stop trying to bend the facts that would make your posts might become credible.

But she clearly doesn't want to do actual research...

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think anyone should be able to post their opinion without having to "support" their opinions

[amogles]

	Quote:	greenmount
	So back to Brexit because I think some will never understand my point....what happened? A couple of years ago most people here were pretty favourable to it and were sick of EU. Is losing all these privileges not all of us have by virtue of being an EU citizen such a scary perspective? Why? You either get your Swiss citizenship if you want to stay here for the rest of your life or get back to your home country when you don't have a job anymore due to retirement or unemployment or whatever. Now I get it that we all have kids or families and if they'll probably (naturally) choose CH over our home countries we'd like to stick around for them, but then again, everybody can travel relatively easily these days. EU didn't help me to get here, and it will definitely not be a reason to stay here. It's very confusing. What happened? I don't mean parnell and loz who should first check their facts. It was a general atmosphere.

I don't think anything happened. We are still going around in circles revisiting the same arguments. Some people may have changed their opinions slightly, but yeah, good for them. Most people haven't changed their opinions but are maybe becoming temporarily more or less vocal in pronouncing them.

The only constant is change, and things are always changing. Sometimes a bit more and sometimes a bit less. But the change is there. We grow into old phobies and realize we don't approve of the way young people dress or the music they listen to, while forgetting that our parents and grandparents didn't approve much of what we did when we were that age. The world changes. We adapt. Sometimes it's the bad things we are happy we can wave goodbye to. Sometimes we must shed a tear as the good things go too. The solution is not a reactionary clinging onto the past and seeking to preserve things that are already dead. No matter how hard we try, the EU won't go back to being what it was under Schuhmann. Waxing nostalgia doesn't excuse us from facing the future.

We could right now be having a wonderful discussion. What sort of country do we want to be post Brexit? What sort of society do we want to be? Technically, everything could be up for discussion. Here is a once in a lifetime opportunity to re-carve our destiny. But instead there is just anger and tears and hate.

	Quote:	amogles
	The only constant is change, and things are always changing. Sometimes a bit more and sometimes a bit less. But the change is there. We grow into old phobies and realize we don't approve of the way young people dress or the music they listen to, while forgetting that our parents and grandparents didn't approve much of what we did when we were that age. The world changes. We adapt. Sometimes it's the bad things we are happy we can wave goodbye to. Sometimes we must shed a tear as the good things go too. The solution is not a reactionary clinging onto the past and seeking to preserve things that are already dead. No matter how hard we try, the EU won't go back to being what it was under Schuhmann. Waxing nostalgia doesn't excuse us from facing the future.

This argument could quite rightly be used by either side of the fence. People desperate to go back to the good old days before the EU. Jumpers for goalposts, everything in feet and inches, no brown faces, British Made, Ruling the Waves. Specsavers must be doing a roaring trade in rosy-tinted retro-specs.

	Quote:	amogles
	We could right now be having a wonderful discussion. What sort of country do we want to be post Brexit? What sort of society do we want to be? Technically, everything could be up for discussion. Here is a once in a lifetime opportunity to re-carve our destiny. But instead there is just anger and tears and hate.

I think the anger is stemming from the fact that it is certainly NOT the Brexit which was originally touted and will almost certainly see the country much worse off for a large chunk of time. Whether it will get better after that is anybody's guess but there is a convincing argument that Brexit is not a good thing. Anything which is in such a dire and disorganised mess led by a team of incompetent, back-stabbing and power hungry politicians driven by self-interest cannot be trusted to produce a good result.

You say that "technically" everything could be up for discussion, which suggests a rudderless course. "Technically" in a non-technical discussion is the word used when straws are being clutched at. A desperate lunge for "it could be if everyone agrees with this".

"Tears and anger" are not to be sneered at when the reasons behind them are well-founded. In this case, they are more than well founded.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	This argument could quite rightly be used by either side of the fence. People desperate to go back to the good old days before the EU. Jumpers for goalposts, everything in feet and inches, no brown faces, British Made, Ruling the Waves. Specsavers must be doing a roaring trade in rosy-tinted retro-specs.

My point exactly. Those accusing others of being driven by nostalgia may be blind to their own nostalgia.

History is a process of constant change. Those who think it is about striving for some sort of ideal situation, and when that is achieved, freezing all further change, fall into the trap of becoming reactionaries.

	Quote:
	Anything which is in such a dire and disorganised mess led by a team of incompetent, back-stabbing and power hungry politicians driven by self-interest cannot be trusted to produce a good result.

Politicians are always back-stabbers. That's the type of people who are attracted to power.

The Magna Carta was drafted by a rich and not particularly pleasant bunch of barons who got angry when they learnt that the king was abridging their hunting and fishing rights and making them pay more taxes. They got together as the ugly backstabbing mob that they were and forced the king at swordpoint to sign a document that later generations were to hail as a milestone in establishing the rights of the common people, rule of law, human rights and all the rest of it.

Sometimes even back stabbers can be useful.

	Quote:
	You say that "technically" everything could be up for discussion, which suggests a rudderless course. "Technically" in a non-technical discussion is the word used when straws are being clutched at. A desperate lunge for "it could be if everyone agrees with this".

A blank sheet can be interpreted as rudderless. It can also be seen as an opportunity to bring everyone together and have a frank discussion about what to put on that sheet. Risk and opportunity are two sides of the same coin. But anybody not joining that discussion is leaving space for others who may seek other solutions.

	Quote:	amogles
	Sometimes even back stabbers can be useful.

I doubt the current attention-seeking numpties in no. 10 are "useful" in any meaningful way, and have so far carved out a proven track record of utter incompetence when it comes to Brexit.

Be a backstabber by all means but don't make it the only noteworthy point on your portfolio.

Still, as long as some of the population has got this blind and unshakable optimism that somehow it'll all be boom time after March 2019 then let's hope they're right.