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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #12921  
Old 08.08.2018, 17:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A blank sheet can be interpreted as rudderless. It can also be seen as an opportunity to bring everyone together and have a frank discussion about what to put on that sheet. Risk and opportunity are two sides of the same coin. But anybody not joining that discussion is leaving space for others who may seek other solutions.
I doubt that UK waved goodbye to its problems, maybe to some rather marginal ones. I also doubt they will be left with a blank sheet, exactly because some of the problems are old and cannot vanish overnight.

However, if we're talking about long term (positive) consequences, I might agree with you. But who would risk changing some things people will never agree to change...the famous welfare system for instance?

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/poverty/do...rty-report.pdf

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures....support/latest

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UK Time period: 2009/10 to 2015/16

The main facts and figures show that:

over half of family units in the UK received some type of state support, including the State Pension and Child Benefit, over the period studied (for the purposes of this data, a family unit is defined as a single adult or a married or cohabiting couple plus any dependent children)

White British family units were the most likely to receive state support (of any type) and Chinese family units were the least likely to

White British family units were also the most likely to receive non-income related benefits, and Bangladeshi, Black, Mixed, Pakistani and Other ethnic family units were more likely to receive income-related benefits and tax credits

Since 2009/10, the percentage of family units receiving any type of state support has declined for all ethnicities apart from the Bangladeshi and Chinese groups
From my point of view it's admirable they will get to decide their own fate but only that as an option without any reform within UK will mean lost opportunities. As I said, I doubt though that people are willing to change that much and that fast. Macron has a hard time in France exactly because he wants to change some things. It's also admirable that he starts the change from within and plans to rock the boat across EU too. Of course, we shall see which countries will support him.

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  #12922  
Old 08.08.2018, 17:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why pick out loz and parnell? Minority opinion holders need stricter standards? I think anyone should be able to post their opinion without having to "support" their opinions with complicated links or quickly googled (dubious) stats. I am glad that marton is toning down his quest for links.

What changed.. I often ask myself, how quickly popular opinions meander or even contradict themselves within threads, it is interesting.

I keep thinking about May's quiet meetings she just had with individual EU heads of states. Why the tour? What plea was she bringing them from the UK?
Quoting opinions is fine.

Disguising opinions as facts without providing support is not fine?
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  #12923  
Old 08.08.2018, 17:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I doubt that UK waved goodbye to its problems, maybe to some rather marginal ones. I also doubt they will be left with a blank sheet, exactly because some of the problems cannot vanish overnight.

However, if we're talking about long term consequences, I might agree with you. But who would risk changing some things people will never agree to change...the famous welfare system for instance?
I think you need to agree the big picture things first. Do we want a generous and free welfare and healthcare system? I think most people do, even those who criticize the details do approve the overall concept. Then as a second step we need to sit down and work out how to ensure we can keep that concept and make it better. That is the secondary discussion.

Too many of these discussions, however, put the horse before the cart and let secondary discussions prejudice primary ones.

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From my point of view it's admirable they will get to decide their own fate but only that option without any reform within UK will mean lost opportunities.
There will need to be reform in the UK. The UK has a huge backlog on reform. And I think that without the EU on your back telling you, you can't do this and you must do that, you have a far wider range of options open to you. But for that to work, many more people, including those who opposed Brexit, need to swallow their pride and come forward and take part in that discussion and table innovative proposals. They are achieving nothing by slamming the door on that discussion because they are still so sad and angry that they lost. Now is the time for that discussion. Further down the road, when much more is set in stone, it is much more difficult to come back and change things.

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As I said, I doubt people are willing to change that much and that fast. Macron has a hard time in France exactly because he wants to change some things. It's also admirable that he starts the change from within and plans to rock the boat across EU too. Of course, we shall see which countries will support him.
I'm not actually convinced that what Macron is doing is leading anywhere. But let's wait and see and give him a chance. We live in exciting times.
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  #12924  
Old 08.08.2018, 18:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But for that to work, many more people, including those who opposed Brexit, need to swallow their pride and come forward and take part in that discussion and table innovative proposals. They are achieving nothing by slamming the door on that discussion because they are still so sad and angry that they lost. Now is the time for that discussion. Further down the road, when much more is set in stone, it is much more difficult to come back and change things.
Oh come on, that's a tired old drum you are banging there. Even the pro-Brexit Daily Mail was reporting today that around half of the Remainer voters polled are resigned to the fact it's going to happen. The reasons they are NOT happy is because it's being so recklessly handled.

It's nothing to do with being "sad and angry" and all about having a generous serving of realism.

Brexiters crowing about Remainers being "sad and angry" achieves nothing and just adds to the ill feeling, and perhaps they need to get over
themselves.




ETA - just look at the title of the poll, though: "Right now, I no longer care how or when we leave the European Union, I just want it over and done with."
How did the UK get into that defeatist, bleak and frankly tragic state? What a heartbreaking thing to ask a population.

We live in "exciting times"? If that's exciting, I'd hate to see it when it takes a downturn.
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  #12925  
Old 08.08.2018, 18:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think you need to agree the big picture things first. Do we want a generous and free welfare and healthcare system? I think most people do, even those who criticize the details do approve the overall concept. Then as a second step we need to sit down and work out how to ensure we can keep that concept and make it better. That is the secondary discussion.
.
Hehe, you want something similar to Sweden, is it even culturally desirable? Will the British agree with so many and such a high taxation on property, income, goods, everything? Anyway, I don't think it's sustainable without a strong economy and collecting huge taxes from companies and population. How will that evolve in the absence of the deals with EU it's questionable but desirable, of course.

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I'm not actually convinced that what Macron is doing is leading anywhere. But let's wait and see and give him a chance. We live in exciting times.
Maybe it's not very visible from here, some of the French that voted for him approve of his actions and way of thinking. We always lived in exciting times, now it's just so much more visible and fast changing.

By the by, I don't agree with deceiving or backstabbing being a quality. Not even for the politicians. I think the truth catches up with you sooner or later.
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  #12926  
Old 08.08.2018, 18:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I think that the Brits and Yanks are living in exciting times. The rest of us...probably too. I do think that some level of uncertainty is healthy.
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  #12927  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Those are Brexit meetings, so I would obviously expect opinions on them in a Brexit thread.
She's trolloping around Europe selling her backside. She could be selling it at the top of King Street and the response would probably be the same... Ten bob in a tin mug if she's lucky, on a good day, and with the wind blowing in NNW direction.
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We could right now be having a wonderful discussion. What sort of country do we want to be post Brexit? What sort of society do we want to be?
A country that has to stockpile food and medicines to get through the next couple of weeks, and that's not even project fear. It's government policy. Just waiting for the ration cards and people's garden railings being ripped out. Well...you wanted nostalgia.
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  #12928  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Hehe, you want something similar to Sweden, is it even culturally desirable? Will the British agree with so many and such a high taxation on property, income, goods, everything? Anyway, I don't think it's sustainable without a strong economy and collecting huge taxes from companies and population. How will that evolve in the absence of the deals with EU it's questionable but desirable, of course.
The NHS was actually created at a time that Britain was a much poorer place than it is today. If we could afford it then, we can afford it today.

The government at the time decided they wanted not just a safety net for the poor, but a quality service for everybody, regardless of income. This encompasses a philosophy that says, state support is not just there for the poor. This destigmatizes the service. If the NHS was only there for the poor, anybody going there would have that stigma. It's also a clever psychological trick. A person on middle income or above probably never gets as much back in terms of government service as they put money in. But because they get something back, they happily approve of the spending. This is the same reason the government pays for things like the opera, museums, restoring old castles, or making parks in rich areas of town etc that actually are more for the amusement of the rich.

And its in times like today that everybody is doing austerity, and austerity is often about going for the easy targets, the low hanging fruit. This means many projects that are not strictly necessarily for social reasons but that have emotional value will get cut. And this alienates sections of the population who are not poor and not uneducated but can, once their allegiance is lost, cause considerable trouble.

See rise in populism etc.
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  #12929  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think that the Brits and Yanks are living in exciting times. The rest of us...probably too. I do think that some level of uncertainty is healthy.
Traditionally, in terms of political developments, Europe has been about 10 years behind the US. So just wait for it.
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  #12930  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A country that has to stockpile food and medicines to get through the next couple of weeks, and that's not even project fear. It's government policy. Just waiting for the ration cards and people's garden railings being ripped out. Well...you wanted nostalgia.
You do realize Switzerland also stockpiles food?
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  #12931  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Traditionally, in terms of political developments, Europe has been about 10 years behind the US. So just wait for it.
Where is Russia in all of this?
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  #12932  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The NHS was actually created at a time that Britain was a much poorer place than it is today. If we could afford it then, we can afford it today.
..................................................
And its in times like today that everybody is doing austerity, and austerity is often about going for the easy targets, the low hanging fruit. This means many projects that are not strictly necessarily for social reasons but that have emotional value will get cut. And this alienates sections of the population who are not poor and not uneducated but can, once their allegiance is lost, cause considerable trouble.

See rise in populism etc.
Ah, the joys of universal health care. We have that too, it was one of the greatest achievements of post-war Europe. It just doesn't work very well because we're losing qualified staff and it's severely under-financed.

I agree, austerity doesn't work but neither accumulating debt over debt for the the next few generations. There must be a more sustainable solution.
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  #12933  
Old 08.08.2018, 19:44
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You do realize Switzerland also stockpiles food?
Because they are thoughtlessly crashing out of trade deals with no back up plan?
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  #12934  
Old 08.08.2018, 20:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The NHS was actually created at a time that Britain was a much poorer place than it is today. If we could afford it then, we can afford it today.

The government at the time decided they wanted not just a safety net for the poor, but a quality service for everybody, regardless of income. This encompasses a philosophy that says, state support is not just there for the poor. This destigmatizes the service. If the NHS was only there for the poor, anybody going there would have that stigma. It's also a clever psychological trick. A person on middle income or above probably never gets as much back in terms of government service as they put money in. But because they get something back, they happily approve of the spending. This is the same reason the government pays for things like the opera, museums, restoring old castles, or making parks in rich areas of town etc that actually are more for the amusement of the rich.

And its in times like today that everybody is doing austerity, and austerity is often about going for the easy targets, the low hanging fruit. This means many projects that are not strictly necessarily for social reasons but that have emotional value will get cut. And this alienates sections of the population who are not poor and not uneducated but can, once their allegiance is lost, cause considerable trouble.

See rise in populism etc.
The NHS was, and is, a great concept, some great hospitals, leading medicine practices and surgery.
Sadly it never in practice achieved its goals for the average person. For a variety of reasons that are too long to list here.

I remember 30 years ago in February in a UK hospital in Surrey with my son who needed a minor surgical procedure. The surgeon offered a date in November.
I offered to pay for the operation and it was done the following Tuesday.

Just demonstrates the NHS could work well if properly implemented.
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  #12935  
Old 08.08.2018, 21:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Because they are thoughtlessly crashing out of trade deals with no back up plan?
Hehe, anyway I discovered amogles was much more on the left side of the political spectrum than I thought. I am not sure where other views fit in all this story tbh, but I am still fascinated by his optimism. If this is the spirit of the brexiteers maybe everything will turn all right. I remember there were some fake data thrown by UKIP re. NHS, it was a sensitive issue back then and I see this is a recurrent theme.

To me the campaign seemed something to remember and to be studied later on in schools of political science, exactly like Trump's campaign. I am not so sure we live in exciting times, rather very uncertain times. Nobody is sheltered these days. On the one hand is that realisation, on the other one is the strange feeling that despite everything EU will find some resources to survive. Interesting times after all.
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  #12936  
Old 08.08.2018, 22:15
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And I think that without the EU on your back telling you, you can't do this and you must do that, you have a far wider range of options open to you. But for that to work, many more people, including those who opposed Brexit, need to swallow their pride and come forward and take part in that discussion and table innovative proposals.
Ya the usual old BS, blame everyone for your own inadequacies! Remain have made their proposal - a new referendum and exit BREXIT. We have yet to see anything remotely close to a workable plan from the BREXIT leaders - in fact they have not even got the guts to take responsibility for delivering it.
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  #12937  
Old 08.08.2018, 23:24
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I think you need to agree the big picture things first. Do we want a generous and free welfare and healthcare system? I think most people do, even those who criticize the details do approve the overall concept. Then as a second step we need to sit down and work out how to ensure we can keep that concept and make it better. That is the secondary discussion.

Too many of these discussions, however, put the horse before the cart and let secondary discussions prejudice primary ones.



There will need to be reform in the UK. The UK has a huge backlog on reform. And I think that without the EU on your back telling you, you can't do this and you must do that, you have a far wider range of options open to you. But for that to work, many more people, including those who opposed Brexit, need to swallow their pride and come forward and take part in that discussion and table innovative proposals. They are achieving nothing by slamming the door on that discussion because they are still so sad and angry that they lost. Now is the time for that discussion. Further down the road, when much more is set in stone, it is much more difficult to come back and change things.



I'm not actually convinced that what Macron is doing is leading anywhere. But let's wait and see and give him a chance. We live in exciting times.
"without the EU on your back telling you, you can't do this and you must do that, you have a far wider range of options" The UK always had the power of the veto so not so black and white as you claim.

Biggest problem was the UK never really "got Europe", never really got involved and never tried to drive positive changes.
The major parties had little interest in the MEP elections which was a good route to insert people into the system to drive change.

Consequently and sadly I doubt any UK government will have much interest to explore any new options.
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  #12938  
Old 08.08.2018, 23:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There will need to be reform in the UK. The UK has a huge backlog on reform. And I think that without the EU on your back telling you, you can't do this and you must do that, you have a far wider range of options open to you. But for that to work, many more people, including those who opposed Brexit, need to swallow their pride and come forward and take part in that discussion and table innovative proposals. They are achieving nothing by slamming the door on that discussion because they are still so sad and angry that they lost. Now is the time for that discussion. Further down the road, when much more is set in stone, it is much more difficult to come back and change things.
Not sure if it's so much pride or being sad and angry at losing that's the problem than still believing that Brexit is bad for the country and being unwilling or even genuinely unable to participate in anything that serves that cause.
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  #12939  
Old 08.08.2018, 23:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Hehe, anyway I discovered amogles was much more on the left side of the political spectrum than I thought. I am not sure where other views fit in all this story tbh, but I am still fascinated by his optimism. If this is the spirit of the brexiteers maybe everything will turn all right. I remember there were some fake data thrown by UKIP re. NHS, it was a sensitive issue back then and I see this is a recurrent theme.
First of all, I wouldn't say that what I said was a left wing perspective, but one of pragmatism and empiricism. If something works (sort of) don't smash it and replace it with something that just makes things worse. The NHS is a success by and large, especially if you don't focus on recent years but on its full history. This is why people are rightly proud of it. There are obviously things that need fixing but they can be fixed.

I think part of a conservative viewpoint is to be able to recognize things that work and not shoot them down because they were somebody else's idea or came out of somebody else's ideology.

I think it is more of a symptom of ideology-driven positions that Sandgrounder managed to put in a snarky comment, and then get a thank from Blueangel, although under other conditions it would be them who would be defending the NHS.

See how things work?

Yes, I know, I've probably opened a can of worms here.
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Old 08.08.2018, 23:41
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Biggest problem was the UK never really "got Europe", never really got involved and never tried to drive positive changes.
The major parties had little interest in the MEP elections which was a good route to insert people into the system to drive change.

Consequently and sadly I doubt any UK government will have much interest to explore any new options.
I think UK couldn't have replaced France's importance on the continent anyway (at least culturally). And I don't think they needed to "get" Europe, or they wanted that.
Seriously, why should we meet other countries' or other people's expectations? In a way I like this old fashioned self-sufficiency.
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