The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	greenmount
	When will the brexit take place? Is there any official date for that?

You're welcome.

https://twitter.com/brexitcountdow1?lang=en

Mmmh, I don't agree this is solely a UK/Brit problem. Don't think Brexit came along in isolation. This all goes back to the failure of globalization, only reaching the poor with austerity, europe's isolated regions, lack of clear immigration policies, etc.. Oddly and scarily enough, it's polarization which is being globalised now.. brexit is part and parcel of this. It's no accident we have Trump and Putin lolling about.. Moggy and Thumpy will be here soon for the final showdown.

Crikey, 'tis the mother of all dog's dinners.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Hardly Access cards issued after 1973 were Master Cards,so definitely credit cards, OTOH American Express was just a charge card. http://www.accesscreditcard.info/ppi.aspx

[facepalm] FMF... you really have missed the point. Read the original post by John William again and you should realise that s/he is not talking about credit cards, charge cards, debit cards or even simple ATM withdrawal cards. The cards are a sidebar, a diversion, an analogy. [/facepalm]

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Mmmh, I don't agree this is solely a UK/Brit problem. Don't think Brexit came along in isolation. This all goes back to the failure of globalization, only reaching the poor with austerity, europe's isolated regions, lack of clear immigration policies, etc.. Oddly and scarily enough, it's polarization which is being globalised now.. brexit is part and parcel of this. It's no accident we have Trump and Putin lolling about.. Moggy and Thumpy will be here soon for the final showdown. Crikey, 'tis the mother of all dog's dinners.

It didn't come in isolation but it's more similar to the Trump saga than to what's going on in France or Germany for instance. Both have nationalistic and Eurosceptics but things have never escalated so far as in the UK or in the USA. I travel frequently to France and I haven't noticed a huge change compared to say 10 years ago. I think we can blame whatever and whoever we think it's responsible but that won't change the fact than each country needs some time for self-refection. Americans definitely don't seem to think like they need that. I see that even here on EF, the most vehement reactions against Trump and Trumpism come from non-Americans. People are very quick to spot the silliness that's going on there but a bit blind in regards to the role of media, Ukip and so on. We think we can filter through thinly veiled "fake news" and propaganda, but we're not able to do so if those opinions are constantly pushed down our throat.

People have chosen, whether for the right or the wrong reasons or with the good conscience or not, it's not even important anymore. I'll always be interested in what's going on there because I have never experienced so much hostility before Brexit started to gather some form and shape. I really hope that those of us who are living in Switzerland will never experience the Brexit atmosphere. Everybody thinks that can never happen in their country....and history is laughing at us all the time.

Mmh, again, live in the UK, not experienced or heard about an increase in hostility at all.. fear and increasing worry is what I sense now. If in a different context, much of what he has written is sound enough and I agree on some points he makes.. but, the melodrama is wearisome.. I am not at all into the directed moan, embarrassed chuckle that Brexit is all brits doing (do enjoy the memes tho' ), as the EU had a hand in bringing brexit about too. Just like you can not look at Trump without considering what happened in the years before he arrived on the scene.

It's so easy to fall into the brits are at fault, fools and thickos and they need to reflect.. just like we focus on Trump and not the reasons why he got here. The whole/ complete picture is not as sensational or indeed emotional as singling out and scrutinizing aspects.. the wringing of hands, and all that..

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Mmh, again, live in the UK, not experienced or heard about an increase in hostility at all.. fear and increasing worry is what I sense now. If in a different context, much of what he has written is sound enough and I agree on some points he makes.. but, the melodrama is wearisome.

I don't know, as in the article I quoted before some things will definitely have a big impact on people. A couple of years ago OH was thinking to change his current job so he put himself a bit out there. I was on my maternity leave and one day I answered to a recruiter from the UK. He had already interviewed OH (OH was interested in that company at the time) and was willing to offer him the job, but the job was in London. It's funny, the recruiter just couldn't understand why we're not even considering relocating to UK. I was like....what, seriously? Only the perspective of having to deal with some bureaucracy re. permits and such, and again - probably put on the lowest level as if we'd be there for a job in constructions or something, the atmosphere, everything, it was just unacceptable; the guy was nice and I couldn't bring myself to tell him the truth - it's not the company, it's the location. Well, we wouldn't have moved anyway, but never felt so strong about having to relocate. It's nothing when you think it's an anecdote, but I have the feeling that many other people think like that.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Well, we wouldn't have moved anyway, but never felt so strong about having to relocate. It's nothing when you think it's an anecdote, but I have the feeling that many other people think like that.

I know folks moving away from the UK namely because the salaries continue to be so poor and yet the cost of living is rising all the time.. and the uncertainty of Brexit, for sure, has an impact.

But then, I know quite a few people who moved to Switzerland and hated it, and at the first opportunity bounced out again.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Well, we wouldn't have moved anyway, but never felt so strong about having to relocate. It's nothing when you think it's an anecdote, but I have the feeling that many other people think like that.

I think I understand. I love London, but have never wanted to live there. OH loves London and enjoyed his few years living there, but he understands that it would be too claustrophobic for me. It would take a huge increase in wage and guaranteed 10yr contract to tempt him away from where he is now, simply because he's happy with his work/home balance, and you can't buy that.

[marton]

Jaguar Land Rover workers on 3-day week because of Brexit and the diesel slump

Source

Probably more to do with diesel than Brexit?

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Mmh, again, live in the UK, not experienced or heard about an increase in hostility at all.. fear and increasing worry is what I sense now. If in a different context, much of what he has written is sound enough and I agree on some points he makes.. but, the melodrama is wearisome.. I am not at all into the directed moan, embarrassed chuckle that Brexit is all brits doing (do enjoy the memes tho' ), as the EU had a hand in bringing brexit about too. Just like you can not look at Trump without considering what happened in the years before he arrived on the scene. It's so easy to fall into the brits are at fault, fools and thickos and they need to reflect.. just like we focus on Trump and not the reasons why he got here. The whole/ complete picture is not as sensational or indeed emotional as singling out and scrutinizing aspects.. the wringing of hands, and all that..

Yep, this +1

The sensationalised sound bites are just that: and don't reflect all of the UK.

	Quote:	greenmount
	I don't know, as in the article I quoted before some things will definitely have a big impact on people. A couple of years ago OH was thinking to change his current job so he put himself a bit out there. I was on my maternity leave and one day I answered to a recruiter from the UK. He had already interviewed OH (OH was interested in that company at the time) and was willing to offer him the job, but the job was in London. It's funny, the recruiter just couldn't understand why we're not even considering relocating to UK. I was like....what, seriously? .

London is to the rest of the UK what NYC is to the rest of the US: bears very little resemblance.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I think I understand. I love London, but have never wanted to live there. OH loves London and enjoyed his few years living there, but he understands that it would be too claustrophobic for me. It would take a huge increase in wage and guaranteed 10yr contract to tempt him away from where he is now, simply because he's happy with his work/home balance, and you can't buy that.

Exactly. Work/home balance. It's why we moved back to the UK. Salary goes further, amenities better, more space. Admittedly we're not in London. The North is where it's at, obviously...

[Castro]

	Quote:	marton
	Jaguar Land Rover workers on 3-day week because of Brexit and the diesel slump Source Probably more to do with diesel than Brexit?

What irritated me was the attack on JLR CEO Ralf Speth by some Brexiteers, in particular Bernard Jenkin.

	Quote:
	A leading Conservative Brexiter has accused the head of Jaguar Land Rover of inventing dire consequences for his company of a no-deal Brexit, saying people no longer believed the “scaremongers” in the debate. Bernard Jenkin, the MP for Harwich and North Essex and a member of the European Research Group (ERG) collection of hard-Brexit-backing Tories, said Ralf Speth, the chief executive of Britain biggest car manufacturer, should not be worried about border delays after Brexit. Speaking last week at an event also addressed by Theresa May, Speth said in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the company’s factories could grind to a halt and “tens of thousands” of jobs could be lost in the sector. He said the company was committed to the UK but warned a hard Brexit would cost it £1.2bn a year, wiping out profits: “What decisions will we be forced to make if Brexit means not merely that costs go up, but that we cannot physically build cars on time and on budget in the UK?” Asked about the comments on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Jenkin said: “I’m afraid I think he’s making it up. We’ve had figures made up all the time by the scaremongers in this debate, and I’m afraid nobody believes them.” Source

Apparently highlighting evidence based consequences is unpatriotic and he's a German anyway

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	marton
	Probably more to do with diesel than Brexit?

Both management and the Unite trade union rep went on national tv news yesterday and squarely put the blame on the uncertainty caused by Brexit.


Just going back to this point for a moment, as I was reminded of whilst watching a debate between Matt Kelly (Editor of the The New European) and Farage (unelected man trying to dictate our future)...

	Quote:	Swisstree
	It's so easy to fall into the brits are at fault, fools and thickos and they need to reflect..

In the months preceding the referendum, both the sides of the debate were regularly accused of being stupid, thick, etc, on social media (which I personally find to be the most anti-social thing going). Only the side that 'won' the referendum are still banging on about it and wearing it like a badge of honour.

Two years later, all I see from certain figures in the Brexit camp is them using "You said we were too stupid" to shut down every single debate on how the hell we should navigate through this mess. They also use it to reject any chance of the electorate having a say on the final deal. They claim that any question would be too complicated for the electorate, but worst of all, they keep claiming that a second referendum would lead to civil disorder and riots. Now that's what I call project fear! I completely resent being told to put up and shut up and 'you'll get what you're given'. They can shove it!

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Just going back to this point for a moment, as I was reminded of whilst watching a debate between Matt Kelly (Editor of the The New European) and Farage (unelected man trying to dictate our future)...

Nigel Farage is an elected MEP. Matt Kelly is an unelected man trying to dictate our future. HTH.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Nigel Farage is an elected MEP.

Yeah, massive impact he made there, too. Money well spent, eh...

Feckless blow-hard.

	Quote:
	Yeah, massive impact he made there, too. Money well spent, eh... Feckless blow-hard.

Farage and UKIP have probably had the greatest impact on UK politics in a generation. And all with only one MP.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Nigel Farage is an elected MEP.

But not an MP. HTH.

As for your other post... impact certainly : it's like saying a new flavour is "interesting." It's a pejorative. As for greatest...unlikely. There's a good reason they only have one MP.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Farage and UKIP have probably had the greatest impact on UK politics in a generation. And all with only one MP.

You were talking about him in his capacity as an elected MEP.

Zero impact but collected a wage and a pension.

So "feckless blowhard" stands.

Farage was not the elected MP, and UKIP's "impact" was made up of dog-whistling hot-button issues, lying and making false promises. Any fool can do that.

As far as substance for actually running a country goes, their manifesto could have been written on the back of a postage stamp.

Depends how you you interpret "greatest" really, doesn't it? If all-wind-and-piss politics is your thing, you're probably cockahoop with them. Seems you're not alone.

	Quote:
	There's a good reason they only have one MP.

Yes, an archaic first past the post voting system.

	Quote:
	You were talking about him in his capacity as an elected MEP. Zero impact but collected a wage and a pension. So "feckless blowhard" stands. Farage was not the elected MP, and UKIP's "impact" was made up of dog-whistling hot-button issues, lying and making false promises. Any fool can do that. As far as substance for actually running a country goes, their manifesto could have been written on the back of a postage stamp. Depends how you you interpret "greatest" really, doesn't it? If all-wind-and-piss politics is your thing, you're probably cockahoop with them. Seems you're not alone.

Greatest - 1. the superlative of great
Great - 1. an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above average.

As for the rest, you can wail as much as you want but the point stands.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yes, an archaic first past the post voting system. Greatest - 1. the superlative of great Great - 1. an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above average. As for the rest, you can wail as much as you want but the point stands.

With PR they wouldn't have fared that much better now, would they. There are other reasons than "first past the post" for their lack of success.

You can define the word as much as you like, but your opinion-as-fact is not an actual fact-fact.

	Quote:
	With PR they wouldn't have fared that much better now, would they. There are other reasons than "first past the post" for their lack of success. You can define the word as much as you like, but your opinion-as-fact is not an actual fact-fact.

Erm, yes they would actually, especially pre-Brexit referendum.

Here's what the UK electoral map would look like with Proportional Representation

Election 2015: What difference would proportional representation have made?