The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You fail to understand that business's already charge the maximum the can in any marketplace. The cost of providing their product / service has nothing to do with the cost to them, not every company gets it, just the ones that stand the test of time.

Private investment has seen all our essential utilities, even water and nuclear power, our main transport systems, including airports- being sold to rich investors - not British ones- foreign, some from EU, some from afar.

How can Great Britain get back control - when they have deliberately, sold it to the EU and to others, like China, etc?
This is something I just cannot get my head around. We have lost control already- by selling it,

And now, we intend to sell education and the NHS to the USA?!? and give up our welfare, environment and agricultural standards to the USA too in exchange for any (desperate) deal, and virtually become the 51st State- without representation. How can this be 'getting back control'?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Private investment has seen all our essential utilities, even water and nuclear power, our main transport systems, including airports- being sold to rich investors - not British ones- foreign, some from EU, some from afar. How can Great Britain get back control - when they have deliberately, sold it to the EU and to others, like China, etc? This is something I just cannot get my head around. We have lost control already- by selling it, And now, we intend to sell education and the NHS to the USA?!? and give up our welfare, environment and agricultural standards to the USA too in exchange for any (desperate) deal, and virtually become the 51st State- without representation. How can this be 'getting back control'?

So you saying British investors chose not to invest in UK infrastructure companies, I don't blame them either but whats the big deal?

I guess you would be happy with communism.

The UK should have always been the 51 state of the USA, we even talk a similar language. Only the smallest other EU country has English as an official language.

[McTAVGE]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	So you saying British investors chose not to invest in UK infrastructure companies, I don't blame them either but whats the big deal? I guess you would be happy with communism. The UK should have always been the 51 state of the USA, we even talk a similar language. Only the smallest other EU country has English as an official language.

We talk a similar language? I beg to differ!

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	So you saying British investors chose not to invest in UK infrastructure companies, I don't blame them either but whats the big deal? I guess you would be happy with communism. The UK should have always been the 51 state of the USA, we even talk a similar language. Only the smallest other EU country has English as an official language.

Oh dear, what a Hobson's choice hey- there are other ways you know.

The point being that selling your very essential utilities means we just to do not have control of them - would you believe. And they therefore have control, surprise, and can easily have us, literally, over a barrel- be it with prices, supply, or security, etc.

Are you saying that the NHS would be totally safe in the hands of those who have been shown and proven to be totally incapable of running a health system for all themselves, really?

[bowlie]

A case in point is that British Airways is no longer British. They are majority owned and controlled by EU nationals.

In the Post-Brexit world how can a EU airline exercise traffic rights awarded to British airlines? The simple answer is that it is possible if both parties agree. I wish them luck getting that agreement.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Oh dear, what a Hobson's choice hey- there are other ways you know. The point being that selling your very essential utilities means we just to do not have control of them - would you believe. And they therefore have control, surprise, and can easily have us, literally, over a barrel- be it with prices, supply, or security, etc. Are you saying that the NHS would be totally safe in the hands of those who have been shown and proven to be totally incapable of running a health system for all themselves, really?

I want a choice of suppliers, not a monopoly remember trying to get a home phone in 1970's, you had to wait 6 - 18 months for a line, ten came privatisation & you could have a phone within a couple of days.

Whilst NHS spending has hugely increased, productivity has not done so well.Junior Hospital Dr's working much shorter hours & GP's not doing home visits if they can avoid it, whilst their salaries have gone through the roof.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The UK should have always been the 51 state of the USA, we even talk a similar language. Only the smallest other EU country has English as an official language.

Pretty much says it all... Taking back control means what exactly? You get to decide who will control you going forward, sad very sad.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You fail to understand that business's already charge the maximum the can in any marketplace.

What you fail to appreciate is that no business can afford to subsidise such a situation for very long. So the result with be that they will stop carrying such produces, exit the market etc....

Ah yes, junior doctors - they really should go back to doing 140 hours a week- as my OH did in 1969 (145 one week in 4. Really safe, and great for recruitment. It nearly killed him (literally not just out of tiredness).

GPs were told in 1990s that £7000 would be taken off their salary if thex stopped doing on call at night and week-ends. And they said, Ok then, because working 90+ hours a week, + home visits and on-call 1 night in 3 or 4, and 1 week-end in 3 or 4 ON TOP (yes if a GP was called out several times a night, and did not get any sleep, they still had to be in the surgery for 8am) - being valued at 7000 quid, was just a sick joke. And I just can't blame them (especially as, especially before mobile phones (perhaps you can't remember the bricks- which did not work if you were in a dip or a few miles out of town, visiting patients in rural areas) that work- the spouse, more often than not the wife- not qualfied or trained in any way whatsoever- and often with young babies or kids) were also up all night, having to answer the phone in the middle of changing a nappy or BF, etc...and expected to give advice and make life or death decisions, and that for no payment whatsoever. OH was also a Trainer of Under and Post Grads, and taught at the local Medical School - very rewarding, but hugely time consuming. Respect.

Oh, them were the days - bring them back.

Do you really think privatisation, and sending foreign doctors back at a time of massive shortages- will make their salaries go down ... or up? Basic economics escape you perhaps.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Tom1234
	The United Kingdom (UK) is an important partner for Switzerland.\

The new version of they need us more that we need them.... Except that the UK is not nearly as important as the EU nor the US. And in that respect if we give the UK preferential treatment, then there is no argument for not granting the same status to the US, China, India and so on. At which point we will also run into problems with the EU as well.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Whilst NHS spending has hugely increased, productivity has not done so well.Junior Hospital Dr's working much shorter hours & GP's not doing home visits if they can avoid it, whilst their salaries have gone through the roof.

Salaries range from 26 - 46k for junior doctors and they habitually work 12 or 13 hour shifts. That's not that much especially when you consider how much they have to pay out in student loans and fees. Their ludicrously dangerous working hours may have been capped but these are still flipping long shifts given what they actually do for a living! Plus the "slack" is being picked up by the consultants (who did their stints of ludicrously dangerous working hours when they were junior docs...)

As for the GPs... fair enough. Our practice has something like 5 docs (plus locums) and roster of c. 13K patients. I think medical professionals should be well compensated. They studied and trained hard and have almost unimaginable levels of responsibility. It's outrageous they don't all get paid more, from the auxiliary nurses up. And don't get me started on how little midwives get.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Ireland it would be catastrophic

As usual you know SFA about the topic. Yes it will be difficult, but the UK accounts for 16% of our trade, the same as Belgium.

The new Ro-Ro began in April of this year and has a capacity of 120k containers, which will take the bulk of the 190k containers currently going via the UK. The ports in the south of Ireland and France have been or are being upgraded and the national grid is being hooked up the French grid. And in the coming budget up to €30.6 billion could be available to route Irish traffic through Zeebrugge, Antwerp and Rotterdam.

The Irish government have already signed new contracts with the USA to supply beef and the new trade deal with Japan opens up the market too for beef sales. So while in the short term the beef market will take a hit,in the long term it will reduce dependency on the UK.

On top of that with the economy growing at about 7%, it is not the worst time to take a hit and could act as a much need break to prevent the economy over heating.

But more important from an Irish point of view it will make us less dependent on the UK and brings the chance of a United Ireland that bit closer.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Salaries range from 26 - 46k for junior doctors and they habitually work 12 or 13 hour shifts.

Yap, fatmanfilms does not care about the quality of healthcare delivered by overworked, tired staff, just as long as it is cheap.

... and not for himself- as he is in Bupa International.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Ah yes, junior doctors - they really should go back to doing 140 hours a week- as my OH did in 1969 (145 one week in 4. Really safe, and great for recruitment. It nearly killed him (literally not just out of tiredness). GPs were told in 1990s that £7000 would be taken off their salary if thex stopped doing on call at night and week-ends. And they said, Ok then, because working 90+ hours a week, + home visits and on-call 1 night in 3 or 4, and 1 week-end in 3 or 4 ON TOP (yes if a GP was called out several times a night, and did not get any sleep, they still had to be in the surgery for 8am) - being valued at 7000 quid, was just a sick joke. And I just can't blame them (especially as, especially before mobile phones (perhaps you can't remember the bricks- which did not work if you were in a dip or a few miles out of town, visiting patients in rural areas) that work- the spouse, more often than not the wife- not qualfied or trained in any way whatsoever- and often with young babies or kids) were also up all night, having to answer the phone in the middle of changing a nappy or BF, etc...and expected to give advice and make life or death decisions, and that for no payment whatsoever. Oh, them were the days - bring them back. Do you really think privatisation, and sending foreign doctors back at a time of massive shortages- will make their salaries go down ... or up? Basic economics escape you perhaps.

You made up the bit of sending foreign Dr's back, if only you could concentrate of facts I would agree with many more of your posts. It's the school teachers "I know better than you' when they don't & make the rest up assuming they will be believed. Woddy Allen had a point

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Salaries range from 26 - 46k for junior doctors and they habitually work 12 or 13 hour shifts. That's not that much especially when you consider how much they have to pay out in student loans and fees. Their ludicrously dangerous working hours may have been capped but these are still flipping long shifts given what they actually do for a living! Plus the "slack" is being picked up by the consultants (who did their stints of ludicrously dangerous working hours when they were junior docs...) As for the GPs... fair enough. Our practice has something like 5 docs (plus locums) and roster of c. 13K patients. I think medical professionals should be well compensated. They studied and trained hard and have almost unimaginable levels of responsibility. It's outrageous they don't all get paid more, from the auxiliary nurses up. And don't get me started on how little midwives get.

Average earnings in the UK is £21700. GP's average £90,100 which is top 3% of earnings, I rest my case. 95% of the population earn less than £70k

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Yap, fatmanfilms does not care about the quality of healthcare delivered by overworked, tired staff, just as long as it is cheap.

If an accountant does not realise that paying for private medicine is more expensive, It's hardly a surprise that accounts certified as 'Fairly True' AKA ' a true & fair view are often quite wrong based on barmy but accepted accounting standards. Personally I only believe in profits that materialise in cash, anything else is just accounting.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It's the school teachers "I know better than you' when they don't & make the rest up assuming they will be believed. Woddy Allen had a point

I can't decide if it's teachers in general you have a problem with, or just a specific poster...

Although to be fair, I make up stuff all the time... keeps the kids on their toes...

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Average earnings in the UK is £21700. GP's average £90,100 which is top 3% of earnings, I rest my case. 95% of the population earn less than £70k

What case? It is also likely that 95% of the population aren't overworked highly trained professionals making life and death decisions on bugger all sleep. You said they are overpaid. Given the level of skill and responsibility, I vehemently disagree.

How about those folks who make more than that in the arts? Say, oh, I don't know... the film industry. Or sports men/women? Are those salaries justified?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I can't decide if it's teachers in general you have a problem with, or just a specific poster... Although to be fair, I make up stuff all the time... keeps the kids on their toes...

About 1/3 of teachers are good & make learning a pleasure, unfortunately the majority are how shall we say not as good. I imagine I would put you in a different category to the retired teacher in the thread.

Some of the kids are obviously brighter than the teachers in any school, less obviously so with University lecturers. I give the greatest respect to the ones who know what they don't know, which is why I occasionally have an issue with retired teacher.

ah lol- where did I say in my post about sending doctors back?
Well they are, btw, the most recent is very respected and from the Phillpines- a specialist in a rare area, but this is a different story.

The NHS and OAP care homes are going to be hit massively. It is not about sending doctors and nurses back, it is about them not wanting to come to UK anymore. due to massive pressures, very long hours, cut backs that put them in a position where they can't do their job, lack of respect, and also, loss of salary due to loss of Sterling value- as many send and spend much of their salaries back home, and save to retire back home. Nurses won't be able to come as their salary will be below the required threshold anyhow. As for care home workers, on salaries as low as £5/hr for doing a reall stressful and often sh*ty job (literally)- no chance.