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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13761  
Old 06.10.2018, 19:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There is a very clear comparison.

Anyway, since you seem determined to make this personal, I've got three questions for you:

1) How many citizenships do you hold?

2) If the answer to 1) is more than one, are all the nations of which you are a citizen members of the European Union?

3) Did you vote in the referendum on the United Kingdom leaving the European Union?

Take as long as you need.
1) two

2) no

3) yes

but it has nothing to do with your silly comparison. As I didn't vote to take anyone's rights away, knowing full well I could avail myself of those rights for myself and my family.
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  #13762  
Old 06.10.2018, 19:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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1) two

2) no

3) yes

but it has nothing to do with your silly comparison. As I didn't vote to take anyone's rights away, knowing full well I could avail myself of those rights for myself and my family.
You exercised your rights, just as Pachyderm did and intends to.

How he exercises his rights is no business of yours, and you have no right to condemn him for it, any more than I would have the right to condemn you for exercising yours as listed above.
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  #13763  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:13
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Re: Brexit too hot a subject for discussion now ?

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But by far the best reason is that my Remain friends will go utterly ballistic with indignation.
Sadly, this is the level politics and partisanship has sunk to. So many Brexiters and Trump fans claim their favourite reason for voting is just to piss off Remainers/Dems. I pray one day everyone grows up.
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  #13764  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:18
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Re: Brexit too hot a subject for discussion now ?

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Sadly, this is the level politics and partisanship has sunk to. So many Brexiters and Trump fans claim their favourite reason for voting is just to piss off Remainers/Dems. I pray one day everyone grows up.
That particular character trait will go down with humanity.
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  #13765  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As I didn't vote to take anyone's rights away, knowing full well I could avail myself of those rights for myself and my family.
That's the crux of the matter for me. A leave vote would inevitably strip rights from myself, my family and my friends. Even if I wasn't affected personally, in all good conscience, I still couldn't have voted leave. They could rerun the referendum a thousand times over, and my vote would never change.
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  #13766  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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but it has nothing to do with your silly comparison. As I didn't vote to take anyone's rights away, knowing full well I could avail myself of those rights for myself and my family.
I would love to be able to avail myself of these rights too, but unfortunately can't find a trace of Irish ancestry on either side of the family.

As usual, Odile, your argument is tendentious and personal. So I'll be personal too: I voted Remain, but I'm sick and tired of Guardianistas like you taking a high moral tone on Brexit. I had someone very similar staying with me last week and frankly the closed mind and hatred of anyone with a different opinion made me wish I had I voted for Brexit.

Last edited by chrissie7; 06.10.2018 at 20:32. Reason: grammar
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  #13767  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That's the crux of the matter for me. A leave vote would inevitably strip rights from myself, my family and my friends. Even if I wasn't affected personally, in all good conscience, I still couldn't have voted leave. They could rerun the referendum a thousand times over, and my vote would never change.
I also voted in good conscience, regardless of the fact that a loss of rights would be inevitable - including even a possible future expulsion from Switzerland.

The continual characterisation of Leave voters as cynical or selfish is unhelpful and counterproductive. We all had our reasons for voting as we did, and nobody's reasons were any more or less valid than anyone else's.

That's how democracy works.
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  #13768  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

There's always a reason.

Characterizing somebody as "dumb" because (s)he voted for a particular side is something...very German, I have to say.

Typically, it falls back to the politicians because they clearly failed to educate the voters correctly.

At least in Switzerland, politicians know they eventually have to answer to the people in a referendum. So they can't just "muddle through", as it often is believed elsewhere until it's too late.

I can see why the UK would want to pull out of the EU. But I still believe it's not a really clever thing to do - and the way it was executed...that, too, could have been handled better.

Also, the UK isn't Iceland that can live on its own with a bit of fishing and tourism (and get most of its energy from geothermal sources).
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  #13769  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Democracy, in my book - requires those who vote to know they will have to take the consequences.
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  #13770  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Democracy, in my book - requires those who vote to know they will have to take the consequences.
We are all free to make up idiosyncratic definitions for the words we use.

And other people are free to dismiss them.
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  #13771  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I would love to be able to avail myself of these rights too, but unfortunately can't find a trace of Irish ancestry on either side of the family.

As usual, Odile, your argument is tendentious and personal. So I'll be personal too:
Not personal at all- my comment would apply to anyone who voted to take people's rights away, knowing it would not affect them. Here, there or anywhere.
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  #13772  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not personal at all- my comment would apply to anyone who voted to take people's rights away, knowing it would not affect them. Here, there or anywhere.
Like town-dwelling MPs who voted to ban fox-hunting with hounds, for example?

Are they also "despicable"?
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  #13773  
Old 06.10.2018, 20:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

now you have really lost the plot ... oh dear.
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  #13774  
Old 06.10.2018, 21:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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now you have really lost the plot ... oh dear.
It's a reasonable question. You said that you would describe " anyone who voted to take people's rights away, knowing it would not affect them. Here, there or anywhere" as "despicable".

Does that include town-dwelling MPs who voted to ban fox-hunting with hounds or only people who take away the rights of people of whom you do not approve?
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  #13775  
Old 06.10.2018, 21:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Oh dear, looks like we missed the opportunity to get a Swiss passport.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-45762466
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  #13776  
Old 06.10.2018, 22:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not personal at all- my comment would apply to anyone who voted to take people's rights away, knowing it would not affect them. Here, there or anywhere.
But that is not how they see it. They see it having voted for a better future for the country and its citizens. And would argue that you are putting your own interests before the country by voting remain.
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  #13777  
Old 06.10.2018, 23:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But that is not how they see it. They see it having voted for a better future for the country and its citizens. And would argue that you are putting your own interests before the country by voting remain.
This is what I find most frustrating. I voted in good faith. I presume that everyone else did the same, regardless of which side of the fence they eventually landed on. I found some of the Remainer bullshit just as frustrating as some of the Brexiter bullshit, but in the end we all had to make our decision and we were all entitled to do so.

One of my oldest friends is a full-on European Federalist. She lives and breathes the EU: her business is largely based in Brussels, she lives in another EU country, her husband and children will continue to be EU citizens after next March, but most importantly of all, she really, genuinely believes that a united European federal state is the best future for the continent. I utterly disagree with her position, but I totally respect her for it.

Others I know voted to Remain because the were worried about their research funding drying up, or being expelled from Switzerland, or losing their cheap roaming deals when they went on holiday. No matter how selfish, cynical or shallow their reasons might have seemed from my point of view, I still respect them for voting as they thought best.

Unfortunately, this sentiment does not seem to be at all reciprocated. Some of the personal insults I received when I was outed as a "Brexiter" were shocking. As well as patronising comments about my apparent intelligence, there were several nasty things said - by good old friends - with reference to my background and social class (as sad as it was, it was interesting how people really showed their true colours when push came to shove). Very few of my friends - who were almost entirely Remain supporters - could get their heads round the fact that I sincerely, genuinely believed that membership of the EU was a bad thing for the United Kingdom - a belief which I came to very late, and after an awful lot of reading, having begun the decade as a largely pro-EU kind of a chap and having gradually become disenchanted with various aspects of the organisation, before spending a solid two or three days of reading pages and pages of the EU's own material in preparation for casting my vote. To put it in a nutshell: I do not wish to be a citizen of the European Union.

I don't have another nationality. My entire extended family is English and lives in England. I am at risk of expulsion from Switzerland in the future and have potentially closed the door to thousands of jobs from Dalmatia to Dublin. This is big stuff for all of us. When people blithely suggest that I cast my vote for selfish reasons, or because I was ill-informed, or because I'm stupid or racist or shortsighted or whatever, it drives me up the wall. I respect their reasons - why can't they respect mine?

It was my right, after all. I was invited, as a British citizen, to vote - and I voted.
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Old 06.10.2018, 23:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

@DB

The vote was years ago; the reasons for voting are now only of interest to historians.

The issue now is that so long after the vote we still have no idea of what Brexit will look like.

The situation is a farce.

Kicking the can down the road will have to end soon!

The problem is not due to the voters but due to the UK politicians who have proved incapable of forming a consensus view and so have enabled the EU to exploit differences.
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Old 06.10.2018, 23:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not personal at all- my comment would apply to anyone who voted to take people's rights away, knowing it would not affect them. Here, there or anywhere.
I don't know why you keep talking about "taking people's rights away". Brexit people wanted more rights of their own, the right to make their own decisions back!
British people - the well educated ones - will still be able to work all over the world. Europe is packed with non-EC-member state employees.

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Like town-dwelling MPs who voted to ban fox-hunting with hounds, for example?

Are they also "despicable"?
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now you have really lost the plot ... oh dear.
What?! I know this is the way you folk talk to eachother but I don't think I'll ever get used to it. In fact, this way of communicating I call highly despicable - while I try to just shake my head and move on, at times it still makes me sick, when reading it on EF (I don't experience it anywhere else in my life, btw.).

And DB is right, his hunting example is the same thing. It's this - seems to me British - attitude of "if I don't want to/need to do it, nobody else should either".

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This is what I find most frustrating. I voted in good faith. I presume that everyone else did the same, regardless of which side of the fence they eventually landed on. I found some of the Remainer bullshit just as frustrating as some of the Brexiter bullshit, but in the end we all had to make our decision and we were all entitled to do so.

One of my oldest friends is a full-on European Federalist. She lives and breathes the EU: her business is largely based in Brussels, she lives in another EU country, her husband and children will continue to be EU citizens after next March, but most importantly of all, she really, genuinely believes that a united European federal state is the best future for the continent. I utterly disagree with her position, but I totally respect her for it.

Others I know voted to Remain because the were worried about their research funding drying up, or being expelled from Switzerland, or losing their cheap roaming deals when they went on holiday. No matter how selfish, cynical or shallow their reasons might have seemed from my point of view, I still respect them for voting as they thought best.

Unfortunately, this sentiment does not seem to be at all reciprocated. Some of the personal insults I received when I was outed as a "Brexiter" were shocking. As well as patronising comments about my apparent intelligence, there were several nasty things said - by good old friends - with reference to my background and social class (as sad as it was, it was interesting how people really showed their true colours when push came to shove). Very few of my friends - who were almost entirely Remain supporters - could get their heads round the fact that I sincerely, genuinely believed that membership of the EU was a bad thing for the United Kingdom - a belief which I came to very late, and after an awful lot of reading, having begun the decade as a largely pro-EU kind of a chap and having gradually become disenchanted with various aspects of the organisation, before spending a solid two or three days of reading pages and pages of the EU's own material in preparation for casting my vote. To put it in a nutshell: I do not wish to be a citizen of the European Union.

I don't have another nationality. My entire extended family is English and lives in England. I am at risk of expulsion from Switzerland in the future and have potentially closed the door to thousands of jobs from Dalmatia to Dublin. This is big stuff for all of us. When people blithely suggest that I cast my vote for selfish reasons, or because I was ill-informed, or because I'm stupid or racist or shortsighted or whatever, it drives me up the wall. I respect their reasons - why can't they respect mine?

It was my right, after all. I was invited, as a British citizen, to vote - and I voted.
I'm not surprised you experienced this but I sure hope you don't seriously care or let it influence you in the future.

I would definitely have voted for Brexit, were I English. And I live my life - happily - with two non-EC nationalities, so I would know exactly what I'm voting for.
I was so proud and happy with the Brits when Brexit came through. Yeah, I have my naive moments (and I thoroughly enjoy them). That was before this circus started with the "we didn't mean it" .... "we wern't well enough informed" (the victim role is the big thing on that island, innit!) ... and worse: "The others weren't well enough informed, stupid, etc. etc. etc."
All topped with "it was only an advisory vote, is there a way to ignore it?"

Since the Brexit-discussion the world took a closer look at GB and all we saw was a debacle. A bunch of people insulting each other on the lowest level imaginable, like millions of 3 year olds throwing a tantrum. Loud, annoying, unproductive and exhausting.
Every subject seems to be handled this way - the Brexit was just the only one the world was really interested in.
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  #13780  
Old 07.10.2018, 00:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I also voted in good conscience, regardless of the fact that a loss of rights would be inevitable - including even a possible future expulsion from Switzerland.
I can't help but see voting for a future loss of rights, particularly in your position, as counterintuitive and self-deprecating. Brand new 5yr residence permit in hand, I'll see what happens.

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The continual characterisation of Leave voters as cynical or selfish is unhelpful and counterproductive.
...and...
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Characterizing somebody as "dumb" because (s)he voted for a particular side is something...very German, I have to say.
...are both 'go to' stances made repeatedly in the right wing media to reinforce the righteous indignation of leave voters. In all my life, I've never encountered such a bunch of sore winners! It truly beggars belief.
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