The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[amogles]

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	I believe the way some want to achieve this makes a big difference, no???

For a man who used to idolize Mao and never officially disavowed his earlier opinion, I'm not sure that the apology that he wants to achieve the same as Hitler but wants to do so using kinder methods is really Making Corbyn look any more palatable.

	Quote:	amogles
	For a man who used to idolize Mao and never officially disavowed his earlier opinion, I'm not sure that the apology that he wants to achieve the same as Hitler but wants to do so using kinder methods is really Making Corbyn look any more palatable.

Jeremy Corbyn: the man who quotes Enver Hoxha for laughs.

Lovely bloke.

	Quote:	amogles
	For a man who used to idolize Mao and never officially disavowed his earlier opinion, I'm not sure that the apology that he wants to achieve the same as Hitler but wants to do so using kinder methods is really Making Corbyn look any more palatable.

Is Corbyn the main politician pro remain? Really?

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	Is Corbyn the main politician pro remain? Really?

Not at all. He's as big a hypocrite as Boris Johnson.

He's something of a gift to the Brexiteers, sort of a counterweight to Gove and Farage.

[amogles]

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	Is Corbyn the main politician pro remain? Really?

No, but just now you were praising him for stirring the nazi pot.

For somebody not being beyond the occasional antisemitic glitch and worshipping dead dictators, not very smart.

[Blueangel]

Just seen the 'Referendun Campaign Broadcast by the Vote Leave Campaign' before the ITV news. An astonishingly bad piece of propaganda.

Still using the £350million figure that they've been repeatedly told not to use because it's misleading, and still using the idea that the money will / might / maybe go into the NHS, though it's worth noting that they didn't use the true NHS logo because they've been warned of legal action by the NHS if they continue to use it.

[Noth]

Anyone been watching Power Monkeys on Channel 4 ? It's a sort of follow on to Ballot Monkeys from the 2015 election. It's really good, with some bits filmed on the day of broadcast so it's always uptodate. Plus, for Americans, it follows the Trump campaign on their 747. The Putin western mediawatch group gets a look in too.

If you missed episodes and don't have replay, the buccaneer's inlet has them right now.

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	Not at all. He's as big a hypocrite as Boris Johnson. He's something of a gift to the Brexiteers, sort of a counterweight to Gove and Farage.

Just been listening to Cameron on QT- I think he is quite strongly pro remain- apparently al lot more than Corbyn! Strange bed fellows in this campaign.

So if people need help making up their mind- who should they be listening to for guidance?

Perhaps experts who are not politicians and have studied the issues in depth for a very long time. I'll go with this guy- posting again in case you missed it. Professor and expert in EU Law from Liverpool Uni- he talks alot of sense, and like me, not affiliated to any one party:


https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

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	Just been listening to Cameron on QT- I think he is quite strongly pro remain- apparently al lot more than Corbyn! Strange bed fellows in this campaign. So if people need help making up their mind- who should they be listening to for guidance? Perhaps experts who are not politicians and have studied the issues in depth for a very long time. I'll go with this guy- posting again in case you missed it. Professor and expert in EU Law from Liverpool Uni- he talks alot of sense, and like me, not affiliated to any one party: https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

Nobody. They should go to source, like I did. Treaty of Rome, Maastricht, old speeches, declarations.

Once you know what the EU is really about you can make a decision whether you want in or not.

Listening to people for guidance, who have made it their all life to study the issues and balance the pros and cons, can be very helpful in such complex issues. Not to follow like sheep, but to help consider all aspects. Did you bother listening to his lecture?

As for the 21st Century and nazism and fascism- I think some of us did hope that we would have learnt frorm history and the great tragedies caused in the past very near indeed. My parents lived through both the 1st and second world war, and my mother was studying in Munich at the beginning of Hitler's rise, in 1933. Yes, some of us were hoping it was behind us, at least in central Europe and the UK.

Never followed a party line like a sheep and will always make my own mind- based on my own research but also based on experts in the field, especially those who are not partisan to any one party. Maastricht, Delors and Mrs Thatcher were relevant a looong time ago, and you have to place the issues in the current context.

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	Did you bother listening to his lecture?

No point. I already voted.

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	As for the 21st Century and nazism and fascism- I think some of us did hope that we would have learnt frorm history and the great tragedies caused in the past very near indeed. My parents lived through both the 1st and second world war, and my mother was studying in Munich at the beginning of Hitler's rise, in 1933.

Oh, do please tell us all about Switzerland's contribution to the defeat of fascism! I'm all ears.

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	Yes, some of us were hoping it was behind us, at least in central Europe and the UK.

But you lived in Leicester in the seventies. Surely you knew - even back then - that extreme right wing politics never went away.

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	Never followed a party line like a sheep and will always make my own mind- based on my own research but also based on experts in the field, especially those who are not partisan to any one party. Maastricht, Delors and Mrs Thatcher were relevant a looong time ago, and you have to place the issues in the current context.

Make up your mind - is history important or not? Or just when it suits?

[yacek]

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	Listening to people for guidance, who have made it their all life to study the issues and balance the pros and cons, can be very helpful in such complex issues.

I would rather listen to activists and politicians I trust or whom I see as lesser evil. Because in reality the EU law is dead when it comes to anything that matters - budgetary overspending - fine, France can do it; Greece cooking its books - fine, nobody notices. Saving French and German banks when Greece goes bust - fine. Voting in Ireland until it votes yes - fine. Bullying member state Italy into getting the correct gov't - fine.

I've already voted too- doesn't stop me from listening and thinking at all.

History is important, always- but in some instances you have to look at the current context- and how it influences what is happening now.

Of course Leicester always had small pockets of extreme right, but had very little effect or influence on reality, unlike now.

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	Of course Leicester always had small pockets of extreme right, but had very little effect or influence on reality, unlike now.

Easy for a middle class white woman to say.

I should invite some of my old mates from Leicester onto EF to share some of their stories. The city itself used to be a hotbed of NF activity. They've moved out to the suburbs now, but they haven't gone away.

I lived next to 2 white only Council Estates, so I know. But they were pretty irrelevant politically then. And no 'the white middle class' accusation won't wash with me, really, no matter how many times its thrown at me!

Here is part of Nick Clegg's most recent speech:

'It is a naive and dangerous fantasy

On immigration, the people who might vote for Brexit they will have seen today that repressible poster from Nigel Farage with a photograph of these desperate wretched vulnerable people fleeing conflict in Syria Iraq & Afghanistan. He’s using that on a poster! How dare he?

But even on his own terms, does anyone seriously think that these people are going to stop moving in large numbers across the European continent just because the UK has pulled out of the EU. What a despicable lie. How dare you claim to people that immigration if that is what people are concerned about will suddenly disappear, that this mass movement of people will suddenly stop just because the UK is not in the EU. It is a fantasty, it is a mendacious fantasy and it is appalling that they keep peddling it as hard as they do.

That is not to mention the at first imperceptible but over time very significant and unavoidable slide of our country’s relevance in the affairs of the world? There will be a slide in relevance in the status of our country in the world. How can we stand tall in Beijing, New Delhi, Moscow Washington if we can’t stand tall in Brussels, Berlin and Paris. If we can’t stand tall and lead in our own neighbourhood how can we stand tall in the world?

What really concerns me is that these people who might be lulled into thinking that this false utopia that the Brexiteers are promising might come to pass. There isn’t a land of milk and honey, there isn’t a promised land where all our problems will disappear if we leave the EU next Friday. No there isn’t.

What there is is political upheaval, constitutional gridlock, economic decline, international irrelevance. That’s not what I want, that’s not what we want. We don’t want that for our kids our our grandkids either.,

such an interesting fact that the BREXIT or remain vote is split among all main parties bar UKIP- and that is is not possible to know from traditional political affiliation, how people are voting. That is the only good thing that comes out of this.

[curley]

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	Listening to people for guidance....

that should read "for input" imo. I listen to what kind of new aspects to a subject they bring up ..... then go check on the aspects to find out whether they're of value to me.

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	Oh, do please tell us all about Switzerland's contribution to the defeat of fascism! I'm all ears.

oh dear, that will be a very empty post ....

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	I lived next to 2 white only Council Estates, so I know. But they were pretty irrelevant politically then.

Here. Refresh your memory. The NF were massive in Leicester in the seventies.

http://www.macearchive.org/Archive/T...ntry/1586.html

Which I agreed- but it fizzled out as the Ugandan Asians settled in really well- apart from small quite irrelevant pockets.

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	Which I agreed- but it fizzled out as the Ugandan Asians settled in really well- apart from small quite irrelevant pockets.

My friends from Leicester would vehemently disagree.

But what do they know? They didn't live "next to" any council estates...

[higgybaby]

Anyone who.is confused with all the numbers being thrown back and forth in the British EU Referendum debate might want to listen to this two part BBC Radio 4 referendum special of 'More or Less' where many of the figures are examined, investigated and analysed for accuracy and meaningfulness......

http://bbc.in/1txXpRt