The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I can't help but see voting for a future loss of rights, particularly in your position, as counterintuitive and self-deprecating. Brand new 5yr residence permit in hand, I'll see what happens.

It's called "principle" - the same thing that guided voters on both sides of the fence.

	Quote:
	...are both 'go to' stances made repeatedly in the right wing media to reinforce the righteous indignation of leave voters. In all my life, I've never encountered such a bunch of sore winners! It truly beggars belief.

I don't understand this comment. What do you mean by "go to stances"?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	marton
	The problem is not due to the voters but due to the UK politicians who have proved incapable of forming a consensus view and so have enabled the EU to exploit differences.

Precisely.
We've got strong rumours of a Canada +++ being on the table, which would be vastly superior to the (dare I say) Chequers deal offered by May, and roundly decried by Rees-Mogg, BJ et al, who would happily just like the crumbs from the floor under the EU's table and claim it as a success.

With the UK's national debt standing at well over £1 trillion, which is the highest since.... ever(?), quantitative easing still in place, and May claiming that the end to austerity is in sight, I really wonder what a bad economic day would look like in their books

This scenario is all well and good for get rich quick merchants, and egotists who give grand speeches to 1,400 tory voters about nothing of any real substance, but to the people who live in the UK and use public services day in, day out, it's freaking scary.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	It's called "principle" - the same thing that guided voters on both sides of the fence.

Speak for yourself. I used logic based upon four simple questions...
1. How will leaving affect me and my relationship? Potentially very badly.
2. How will it affect my family? Definitely very badly.
3. How will it affect my friends? Definitely very badly.
4. How will it affect the industry I work in (at the time)? Woah! Where to even begin??

I chose to guage the progress of the last 2.5yrs based upon question 4, and it's still, with 6mths left to go, a freaking nightmare of a mess.

	Quote:
	I don't understand this comment. What do you mean by "go to stances"?

Well after over 2yrs of being called a remoaner, the only whinging I've heard has been from leavers. "You called us racist, stupid, thick, selfish, etc..."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...think-are.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...root-Left.html

It's a peculiar reversal of fortune when Tory rags call remain voters 'elite' regardless of who they are. If a working class through and through Wiganer like me can be thought of as 'elite', then the rest of you are buggered!

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Speak for yourself. I used logic based upon four simple questions... 1. How will leaving affect me and my relationship? Potentially very badly. 2. How will it affect my family? Definitely very badly. 3. How will it affect my friends? Definitely very badly. 4. How will it affect the industry I work in (at the time)? Woah! Where to even begin?? I chose to guage the progress of the last 2.5yrs based upon question 4, and it's still, with 6mths left to go, a freaking nightmare of a mess. Well after over 2yrs of being called a remoaner, the only whinging I've heard has been from leavers. "You called us racist, stupid, thick, selfish, etc..." https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...think-are.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...root-Left.html It's a peculiar reversal of fortune when Tory rags call remain voters 'elite' regardless of who they are. If a working class through and through Wiganer like me can be thought of as 'elite', then the rest of you are buggered!

I won't click on your links as I won't give that website my traffic, but I've had all those things said to me and, as almost all of my friends and acquaintances voted Remain, read and hear some pretty nasty stuff on an almost daily basis. I don't need to go to the Daily Mail for any of that.

I doubt you would enjoy being called racist and a "gammon" by people who are supposed to be your friends.

[Blueangel]

This 'gammon' thing is a new one to me. I read it for the first time last week, and have been too busy to look up what it's supposed to mean.

On the whole, I sometimes think it's easier to deal with the leave voters that I know (all 3 of them) than the Corbynistas.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	marton
	The problem is not due to the voters but due to the UK politicians who have proved incapable of forming a consensus view and so have enabled the EU to exploit differences.

It's a very despicable mindset when it's always somebody else's fault when things don't go as expected, whereas the good outcomes are claimed to be the result of the speaker's actions.

	Quote:
	I doubt you would enjoy being called racist and a "gammon" by people who are supposed to be your friends.

That knife cuts both ways, see Pachyderm's pathetic main reason for getting a Irish passport.

Remainers have been called things a lot worse than 'gammon'- for sure.

As for 'principles' - I'd say voting to take away the rights of others, knowing full well that you would be one of the few who will be able to avoid being affected, is not principled, at all.

	Quote:
	Remainers have been called things a lot worse than 'gammon'- for sure.

Not by me, they haven't.

	Quote:
	As for 'principles' - I'd say voting to take away the rights of others, knowing full well that you would be one of the few who will be able to avoid being affected, is not principled, at all.

So you've already said, but I ask again: do you believe this in every instance or only when the rights to be lost are those of which you approve?

Not by me either, t'other way round.

Curley: 'I don't know why you keep talking about "taking people's rights away". Brexit people wanted more rights of their own, the right to make their own decisions back!
British people - the well educated ones - will still be able to work all over the world. Europe is packed with non-EC-member state employees.'

Not all who want to travel and work in the EU are 'well educated' - and certainly not all earn 30/35/50.000 a year (whichever figure will be finally decided upon). As per the list I posted a couple of days ago. Are you really saying that movement should only be for the upper middle classes?

What about the rights of all the Brits I know, who are already in the EU- and who have fallen on bad times. My young friend left with 2 kids, 1 with severe illness, after her young husband dropped dead, and so many others. Those who retired abroad who did their research carefully, bought a house and did it up, with their retirement savings- who now find they may not be able to access health-care, might not be able to stay- but with a house which is virtually unsaleable. It's not just about bankers and IT staff in big pharmas.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	Those who retired abroad who did their research carefully, bought a house and did it up, with their retirement savings- who now find they may not be able to access health-care, might not be able to stay- but with a house which is virtually unsaleable. It's not just about bankers and IT staff in big pharmas.

Simples, naturalise. Switzerland is notorious for its high barriers so it should be that much easier in the EU countries.

The situation is of course very different for the Brits in France, Spain or Italy- not bankers, not IT- but small artisans, builders, carpenters, plumbers, small businesses. And of course, retirees on UK pensions, who all researched the move very carefully, made provisions for minor currency differences, and have spent all their savings, lump sums, etc, on buying a cheap house in an area of France, etc, where the French, etc, do not wish to live (too far from urban centres and work)- have worked their guts out and spent the rest on repairing, renovating - and thought they would be comfortable to the end of their days, with access to good health care, etc. They now find they may not well have the right to stay at all, or their wages will be too low. Some had a good income, but tragedy, illness, or death of a partner, struck- leaving them with not much and a mortgage. There are heart rendering stories out there - very different to those of expats in CH.

In areas of France with high British expats, there are massive queues, extending for months- just to get a permit to stay- never mind naturalisation. And of course, many of them do not have the necessary high income, the fluent level of language (yes, sadly, in those expats ghettos like Dordogneshire, few bothered to learn, big mistake it turns out), or the number of years. But even when they do, the waiting time is massive. Some Departement and towns are deliberately slowing down the process in 'retaliation'.

	Quote:
	So you've already said, but I ask again: do you believe this in every instance or only when the rights to be lost are those of which you approve?

Stop playing games - there is a massive difference between a Parliamentary Vote, through our MPs, as per UK Parliamentary Democracy- and attempts to influence it, democratically- and which can re changed, reversed, at a later stage via the same route.

Brexit is for a very long time - and the UK a) does not have a direct voting system b) the minority was tiny c) the campaign was based on massive lies from our political representatives, and now proven fraud d) Cameron had no right to by-pass Parliament to make a Referendum binding, without a threshold, which is by UK Law advisory. Parliamentary Democracy allows for change, on a regular basis, about every 4 years, on any issue.

Not in this case - hence the big difference.

No-one, I believe, has told you you had not carefully researched your vote, or that it was based on ignorance and racism. But yes, I am afraid, it seems clear that this was the case for a very significant % of voters for Brexit. Yes, I know, lies, damn lies and statistics - but up to a point ... they are hard to ignore.

So, to summarise, your principles are flexible and depend entirely on circumstance.

That's fine - I don't think any of us is capable of true moral or political consistency - but it's helpful to have it out in the open.

I wish you a good Sunday.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	In areas of France with high British expats, there are massive queues, extending for months- just to get a permit to stay- never mind naturalisation. And of course, many of them do not have the necessary high income, the fluent level of language (yes, sadly, in those expats ghettos like Dordogneshire, few bothered to learn, big mistake it turns out), or the number of years. But even when they do, the waiting time is massive. Some Departement and towns are deliberately slowing down the process in 'retaliation'.

What your saying is they were living illegally evading French tax, why should I worry about your CRIMINAL friends.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	What your saying is they were living illegally evading French tax, why should I worry about your CRIMINAL friends.

Sorry but how did you come to that conclusion?

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	Sorry but how did you come to that conclusion?

"just to get a permit to stay" implies it's a first, it would be a renewal or extension if they already had one. Guess this is what he based his post on.

Not at all, it is because there is currently no requirement to have one. From TheLocal.fr:


Although there is no legal obligation for Brits in France to get a carte de séjour residency permit, campaigners are urging them to obtain one with Brexit looming on the horizon. Here's why.

While there are an estimated 150,000 British citizens living in France, it is believed only around 15,000 have applied for a French residency permit called a carte de séjour.

One of the reasons why only 10 percent of Brits in France have obtained one is that there hasn't been and currently isn't any legal obligation for them to do so. As EU citizens they are perfectly entitled to be a permanent resident in France without having to obtain an official permit.

But Brexit has obviously complicated things and the campaign group Remain in France Together (RIFT), France's Ministry of Interior and the UK Embassy are all urging British nationals to get a carte de séjour as soon as possible.


However, I am sure there are some Brits, who have been dodging and weaving under the radar, one way or another, be it in France or in Spain or in ... Malta. I don't know any personally, but I am sure they exist.

BTW all my British friends in France on State and professional pensions pay tax in UK, not in France.

Friends from Scotland bought a small house just before the Referendum- but he could not retire until a few months ago. They have now made the move, but now find that the goal posts have totally changed, and that their careful and serious research was to no avail. And they are trying really hard to learn French asap- but it is not easy once in your 60s. They have been told they cannot have an appointment for their CdS for months, beyond March 2019- as everyone is applying at once.

[Sky]

I truly understand those who wish to leave. The UK is their country, their right, their government, their history.
Whatever they feel, it's not for foreigners to judge.

Yet, I just don't believe that it's the 3 million EUs who are making a negative difference in a country of 67 million, (which corresponds to 4.4 % of the population).

25% of the population in Switzerland is foreign (in comparison).

I don't understand how getting rid of the EUs is going to solve the issues in the UK.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	"just to get a permit to stay" implies it's a first, it would be a renewal or extension if they already had one. Guess this is what he based his post on.

It just seemed to escalate pretty dramatically to the pearl-clutching supposition that a group of expats were tax evading CRIMINALS IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

Made me chuckle.