The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Odile]

Just another very personal and childish attack from FMF - you should be used to it by now, and see right through

I've put him on ignore - and then you go and copy his posts, grrr, lol

Talk about 'arguments or comments being tendentious and personal' ah.

[curley]

	Quote:	Odile
	......(yes, sadly, in those expats ghettos like Dordogneshire.

"Dordogneshire" love it.
This British mania to change names in other people's countries.
Wonder what they will make of Grishun one day. And will it take us all as long as India to change them back?

[chrissie7]

	Quote:	Odile
	While there are an estimated 150,000 British citizens living in France, it is believed only around 15,000 have applied for a French residency permit called a carte de séjour. One of the reasons why only 10 percent of Brits in France have obtained one is that there hasn't been and currently isn't any legal obligation for them to do so. As EU citizens they are perfectly entitled to be a permanent resident in France without having to obtain an official permit. Friends from Scotland bought a small house just before the Referendum- but he could not retire until a few months ago. They have now made the move, but now find that the goal posts have totally changed, and that their careful and serious research was to no avail. And they are trying really hard to learn French asap- but it is not easy once in your 60s. They have been told they cannot have an appointment for their CdS for months, beyond March 2019- as everyone is applying at once.

They have had two years to get a carte de séjour - surely it's the first thing they should have done after the referendum (or even before it).

I don't understand the tale about your friends - had they no intention of learning French if the referendum had not taken place? What goalposts have moved?

Emotive, anecdotal stories are not a basis for reasonable discussion and all your posts have been highly partisan. The referendum campaign was staggeringly badly conducted with misleading misinformation on both sides. It wasn't fraudulent - triggering Art. 50 made the result binding, which Labour supported.

I didn't like the result, but it's done. Trying to get a rerun will be counter-productive and essentially undemocratic.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Odile
	Cameron had no right to by-pass Parliament to make a Referendum binding, without a threshold, which is by UK Law advisory.

So which prevision of the UK constitution are you basing this statement on? You will not find any because the entire UK constitution is unwritten and based on tradition and what the PM of the day says. So there was noting preventing DC from doing so. Defining democracy and the constitution to suit yourself is fine but it kind of comes a part when it hits reality.

[Blueangel]

Awww....

	Quote:
	Dogs owners march on UK parliament demanding new Brexit 'Wooferendum'

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-idUSKCN1MH0Q9

[Odile]

	Quote:	chrissie7
	They have had two years to get a carte de séjour - surely it's the first thing they should have done after the referendum (or even before it). I don't understand the tale about your friends - had they no intention of learning French if the referendum had not taken place? What goalposts have moved?

You can't get 'carte de séjour' if you are not resident - they bought the house 2 years ago, but had to wait till they retired to move this Summer. Of course they intended to learn French, and started lessons in Scotland too. But they would have had plenty of time to do so before Brexit. Yes, goalposts have changed- and expats in France, Spain, Italy - still do not know to what extent. They will probably lose healthcare access via the French, etc, system. They may not have the right to stay at all, which was garanteed at the time of their decision. Their pets who have all been passported at substantial expense may not be able to go back and forth with them, their pension may be affected, and most of all, the exchange rate if the £ tanks, will strongly affect their income. On top, their house in the country may be impossible to sell if 10s of 1000s of Brits have no choice but to return to UK empty handed, because of above.


Jim, I do believe it is common knowledge that in the UK, Parliament is Sovereign - we do not have a President- and Referendums, by UK Law, are advisory.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	You can't get 'carte de séjour' if you are not resident - they bought the house 2 years ago, but had to wait till they retired to move this Summer. Of course they intended to learn French, and started lessons in Scotland too. But they would have had plenty of time to do so before Brexit. Yes, goalposts have changed- and expats in France, Spain, Italy - still do not know to what extent. They will probably lose healthcare access via the French, etc, system. They may not have the right to stay at all, which was garanteed at the time of their decision. Their pets who have all been passported at substantial expense may not be able to go back and forth with them, their pension may be affected, and most of all, the exchange rate if the £ tanks, will strongly affect their income. On top, their house in the country may be impossible to sell if 10s of 1000s of Brits have no choice but to return to UK empty handed, because of above.

Emigration is risky. Nobody was "guaranteed" anything. Sure, there are many potential personal disappointments likely to follow, but that's inevitable with any political change: just ask the Russians of Latvia or the Serbs of Kosova.

Expecting millions of ordinary people living in the United Kingdom to consider the investments of a few thousand Brits who chose to take the risk of moving to a foreign country into consideration before casting their vote is absurd.

In a nutshell: shit happens, and it can happen to anyone.

[Odile]

Of course. But people who did so based their very careful research based on being a member of the EU. So asking about which goal posts have moved seems a bit strange!?!

I've asked a group of them how they felt about those who voted for Brexit, will not be affected by it, and availed themselves of an Irish Granny Passport too- I won't post the replies but they certainly ALL agree it is hypocritical in the extreme BTW, their spouse or children won't be entitled to one either- I wonder what they think about it.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	I've asked a group of them how they felt about those who voted for Brexit, will not be affected by it, and availed themselves of an Irish Granny Passport too- I won't post the replies but they certainly ALL agree it is hypocritical in the extreme BTW, their spouse or children won't be entitled to one either- I wonder what they think about it.

You keep saying this. You don't seem to understand: EVERY SINGLE BRITISH CITIZEN WILL BE AFFECTED BY BREXIT. That's all of us, whether we have one passport or twenty, whether we live in the United Kingdom or not. It will be - if it goes ahead - the single biggest change to our status for decades. How on earth can you conclude that any of us will not be affected by it?

[chrissie7]

	Quote:	Odile
	You can't get 'carte de séjour' if you are not resident - they bought the house 2 years ago, but had to wait till they retired to move this Summer. Of course they intended to learn French, and started lessons in Scotland too. But they would have had plenty of time to do so before Brexit. Yes, goalposts have changed- and expats in France, Spain, Italy - still do not know to what extent. They will probably lose healthcare access via the French, etc, system. They may not have the right to stay at all, which was garanteed at the time of their decision. Their pets who have all been passported at substantial expense may not be able to go back and forth with them, their pension may be affected, and most of all, the exchange rate if the £ tanks, will strongly affect their income. On top, their house in the country may be impossible to sell if 10s of 1000s of Brits have no choice but to return to UK empty handed, because of above. Jim, I do believe it is common knowledge that in the UK, Parliament is Sovereign - we do not have a President- and Referendums, by UK Law, are advisory.

I wasn't referring to your friends but to your quote and remark about long waiting times for a residency permit:

'Although there is no legal obligation for Brits in France to get a carte de séjour residency permit, campaigners are urging them to obtain one with Brexit looming on the horizon. Here's why. While there are an estimated 150,000 British citizens living in France, it is believed only around 15,000 have applied for a French residency permit called a carte de séjour.'

There was nothing to stop any of them getting a carte de sejour the moment the referendum was announced.

You do not know if they will lose healthcare or a right to stay (and it seems highly unlikely) - to say it is probable is just scaremongering.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Odile
	Jim, I do believe it is common knowledge that in the UK, Parliament is Sovereign - we do not have a President- and Referendums, by UK Law, are advisory.

And here we go again....

It does not matter wheather is common knowledge or not... and having a president makes no difference to having a sovereign parliament.

Before you make any more sweeping statements about the law, do us all a favor and learn what the law is.

[curley]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Awww.... https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-idUSKCN1MH0Q9

Now this is definitely a FWP.

	Quote:	Odile
	You can't ......

I didn't quote it all because it doesn't matter what exactly the details of that post was. What I wonder is: Why do you keep telling everybody the story of your friends and/or neighbours in France?
Do you actually think, first priority of a country should be their expats? The people who left the country?!

The foreigners actually living in a country have more priority than it's expats. The expats can come home anytime, that's all their own country owes them.

Oh, and the safest place for your demanding friends is Germany. Definitely Germany. Maybe one day (hopefully ..... oops, did I say that?) Germany will be the only country left in the EU and everybody else returned to something like the EWR, sharing the only thing worth sharing: The market.
We don't need the same rules and laws and definitely not the same weird philosophies. We don't even need the same time of day.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	curley
	[..]everybody else returned to something like the EWR, sharing the only thing worth sharing: The market. We don't need the same rules and laws and definitely not the same weird philosophies. We don't even need the same time of day.

There is no such thing as a common market without having the same laws and regulations. In fact each set of laws and regulations creates its own market.

I agree with the rest though, who emigrated is (or should be) among the last of a country's worries.

[Odile]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	There is no such thing as a common market without having the same laws and regulations. In fact each set of laws and regulations creates its own market. I agree with the rest though, who emigrated is (or should be) among the last of a country's worries.

Exactly, for first paragraph- no cherry picking is the only way. You can't have a club of any sort where some members can negotiate better conditions for the same rules.

Agreed, with second paragraph - until you think about it. There are 10s of 1000s of British expats in the EU, 1.3 million actually- many of them will have no choice but to return to UK if they do not get right to stay or to work, unable to sell houses, with savings gone, no job, and in need of social housing, social care, health care (and retirees are VERY expensive ) - and more. Which would put a huge strain on above services and tax payer.

Not us- we have taken massive care in making sure that could not happen to us- but most are not in that situation (dual nationality and property in the UK), etc.

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	There is no such thing as a common market without having the same laws and regulations. In fact each set of laws and regulations creates its own market.

Yes, but there also cannot be a common market without monetary transfers to the weaker states.
Because with today's improvements in efficiency, the only way to stay competitive for the weaker states is wage depression.
The monetary transfers also imply a tax and social union that currently does not exist (and isn't on the horizon either - for the foreseeable future).

Is it the people's fault that the only things they associate with Europe are not having to exchange money when on holiday and not needing a passport when crossing a border by car (you still need one for flying)?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	rainer_d
	Is it the people's fault that the only things they associate with Europe are not having to exchange money when on holiday and not needing a passport when crossing a border by car (you still need one for flying)?

Yes I would say that it is. If you are not aware of what is going on and what your government is doing on your behalf how can you hold them accountable at election time? People that argue that they did not vote for the EU for instance, seem to be unaware that for forty years they elected MPs who made the decision for them and they failed to hold them to account.

I know Ireland is a bit of an exception because politics is almost a national sport and they are required to vote on every EU treaty change so the are very aware of what is happening. I doubt you’d find many voters who could not explain something like the EU fiscal compact, simply because they will have been bombarded with it for 6 or 8 weeks before the vote. And as one mountainy farmer summed it up - you can’t have enough people keeping an eye on those little fe@kers in the Dail (Irish Parliament)!

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	curley
	We don't need the same rules and laws and definitely not the same weird philosophies. We don't even need the same time of day.

And what you need to is learn a bit of economics, who markets work and why the common market is structured as it is and the social aspects behind it. Before coming out with this kind of nonsense!

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Yes I would say that it is. If you are not aware of what is going on and what your government is doing on your behalf how can you hold them accountable at election time? People that argue that they did not vote for the EU for instance, seem to be unaware that for forty years they elected MPs who made the decision for them and they failed to hold them to account. I know Ireland is a bit of an exception because politics is almost a national sport and they are required to vote on every EU treaty change so the are very aware of what is happening. I doubt you’d find many voters who could not explain something like the EU fiscal compact, simply because they will have been bombarded with it for 6 or 8 weeks before the vote. And as one mountainy farmer summed it up - you can’t have enough people keeping an eye on those little fe@kers in the Dail (Irish Parliament)!

The problem is: politicians were OK with dumb people, as long as they voted them into office again and again.
Now that this particular habit of re-electing has kind-of stopped, they'd like more intelligent voters.

In Germany, there's a historical bias against public votes. That's fully understandable but OTOH, if you can't really trust your population to "do the right thing", you might as well call it quits and reinstate the Kaiser again, have the land rules by nobility and bureaucrats.
Would save a lot of expenses for the MPs at least.

Public votes are extremely important so that people actually get a feeling of being able to make a difference in politics. And they help keeping politicians "in line", as you rightly quote your farmer.

[McTAVGE]

	Quote:	curley
	Now this is definitely a FWP. I didn't quote it all because it doesn't matter what exactly the details of that post was. What I wonder is: Why do you keep telling everybody the story of your friends and/or neighbours in France? Do you actually think, first priority of a country should be their expats? The people who left the country?! The foreigners actually living in a country have more priority than it's expats. The expats can come home anytime, that's all their own country owes them. Oh, and the safest place for your demanding friends is Germany. Definitely Germany. Maybe one day (hopefully ..... oops, did I say that?) Germany will be the only country left in the EU and everybody else returned to something like the EWR, sharing the only thing worth sharing: The market. We don't need the same rules and laws and definitely not the same weird philosophies. We don't even need the same time of day.

Definitely not the East of Germany with the rise of AfD!

[Sky]

DB, perhaps everybody will be affected by Brexit but not in the same way.

I don't believe that the wealthy UK expat living in cozy ultra-efficient Switzerland is going to feel Brexit, in same manner the poor guy who potentially could lose his assembly job in a manufacturing line of any company trying to sift through the wave of change.