The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[RufusB]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It's not an Army or cilil servants pension so does not count as a 'Government Pension' only taxable in the UK. Odile has claimed her teachers pension & husbands Dr's pension are taxable in CH, so clearly I am correct unless Odile is incorrect

??? Why isn't it a government pension? Explain. Or do you mean "it might be a gov't pension but it's taxable elsewhere too?"

Teachers are public sector workers.

https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/m...ng-abroad.aspx

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	RufusB
	??? Why isn't it a government pension? Explain. Or do you mean "it might be a gov't pension but it's taxable elsewhere too?" Teachers are public sector workers.

It's a SPECIFIC definition by the Inland Revenue, you have to remember many companies such as British Airways, British Gas & British Telecom were Government controlled in the 1970's.

OAP's Teachers & Dr's pay do not fall under the legislation. Not sure about MP's but Army & Civil service do.

In general you have a choice of where a pension is taxable EXCEPT certain Government pensions defined in the legislation.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It's a SPECIFIC definition by the Inland Revenue, you have to remember many companies such as British Airways, British Gas & British Telecom were Government controlled in the 1970's.

Teaching in the UK has not been privatised. I don't see the link with British Gas to be honest. What is the specific IR definition?

Armed forces are public service workers.

The TPS is a gov't scheme AFAIK, TPS administrate on behalf of the Dept for Education: caused a furore when implemented, another one when moved from final salary to career average. It is however in addition to a state pension. Is that the confusion?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	baboon
	Different tax treaty, different rules. Odile is correct in both cases, in this case Odile and her OH being Swiss mean she pays tax in Switzerland.

This is incorrect, pensions only taxable in the UK under the legislation are not subject to the DT taxation rules so you don't have a choice to elect the taxation in that case.

Marton certainly has a UK pension taxable in the UK which he never historically declared to the Swiss, which was incorrect although no Swiss tax is payable on said pension.

Really interested to know where your info comes from, as I personally fill in the UK DT form every year I have some knowledge of the legislation.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	RufusB
	Teaching in the UK has not been privatised. I don't see the link with British Gas to be honest. What is the specific IR definition? Armed forces are public service workers. The TPS is a gov't scheme AFAIK : caused a furore when implemented, another one when moved from final salary to career average. It is however in addition to a state pension. Is that the confusion?

The DT link I provided states :-

‘Government’ pensions
Many, but not all, treaties have special rules that apply if the pension is paid for service to the UK government or a local authority. Under many treaties the UK will retain primary taxing rights over a ‘government’ pension. The DT Digest will help you to decide if relief from UK tax is available on your ‘government’ pension.
If these rules mean that your pension will be taxed in the UK, you may be able to claim UK personal allowances, provided that you satisfy certain conditions. If you have any questions or wish to make a claim, please contact HM Revenue & Customs at the address in Note 6.'


Sure, this is all irrelevant as Teachers have the OPTION of filing in a DT form, Army personal don't.

This is a taxation issue, not who pays the money. The OLD age pension is paid by the government but can be taxed where you want.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Really interested to know where your info comes from, as I personally fill in the UK DT form every year I have some knowledge of the legislation.

You don't have an accountant?

[RufusB]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Why don't you google rather than blindly argue the point? Sure, this is all irrelevant as Teachers have the OPTION of filing in a DT form, Army personal don't. This is a taxation issue, not who pays the money. The OLD age pension is paid by the government but can be taxed where you want.

But you said UK teacher pensions were not government pensions. They are. The taxing of them is a separate issue.

I don't need the capitals for emphasis btw.

I have Googled, not blindly arguing anything. You said not government pension, it is. That is what I'm arguing. What I'm not intested in, to be honest, is if I'd have to pay tax on it abroad.

Provide the link to the specific IR definition please.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	RufusB
	But you said UK teacher pensions were not government pensions. They are. The taxing of them is a separate issue. I don't need the capitals for emphasis btw. I have Googled, not blindly arguing anything. You said not government pension, it is. That is what I'm arguing. What I'm not intested in, to be honest, is if I'd have to pay tax on it abroad. Provide the link to the specific IR definition please.

The discussion is about taxation of teachers pensions, you chose to take my comments out of contest to prove a point. Teachers have to be able to admit they are sometimes wrong.

I provided a link to the DT form which you chose to ignore, it states:-

‘Government’ pensions
Many, but not all, treaties have special rules that apply if the pension is paid for service to the UK government or a local authority. Under many treaties the UK will retain primary taxing rights over a ‘government’ pension. The DT Digest will help you to decide if relief from UK tax is available on your ‘government’ pension.
If these rules mean that your pension will be taxed in the UK, you may be able to claim UK personal allowances, provided that you satisfy certain conditions. If you have any questions or wish to make a claim, please contact HM Revenue & Customs at the address in Note 6."

Clearly Teaching does not come under this definition......

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	This is incorrect, pensions only taxable in the UK under the legislation are not subject to the DT taxation rules so you don't have a choice to elect the taxation in that case. Marton certainly has a UK pension taxable in the UK which he never historically declared to the Swiss, which was incorrect although no Swiss tax is payable on said pension. Really interested to know where your info comes from, as I personally fill in the UK DT form every year I have some knowledge of the legislation.

We have a UK pension which is taxed in Switzerland. We tried the DT thing but the tax office here wanted proof of the tax paid on it in the UK and since it is below the UK taxable income threshold there was none so they include it in the taxable income here. It may be different in other cantons.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Clearly Teaching does not come under this definition......

But if you read this article, it would appear that the payment of certain elements of teachers' pensions is inextricably linked to their state pension...

https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/m...r-pension.aspx

[Dougal's Breakfast]

Most boring discussion on the forum.

Can't we get back to calling each other Gammons and Remoaners, please?

[bigblue2]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Most boring discussion on the forum. Can't we get back to calling each other Gammons and Remoaners, please?

thought you where stuck in new york?

[baboon]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	This is incorrect, pensions only taxable in the UK under the legislation are not subject to the DT taxation rules so you don't have a choice to elect the taxation in that case. Marton certainly has a UK pension taxable in the UK which he never historically declared to the Swiss, which was incorrect although no Swiss tax is payable on said pension. Really interested to know where your info comes from, as I personally fill in the UK DT form every year I have some knowledge of the legislation.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...relief/dt18168 (UK-Swiss DTT)

	Quote:
	(a) Any pension paid by, or out of funds created by, a Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to an individual in respect of services rendered to that State or subdivision or authority shall be taxable only in that State. (b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the individual is a resident of, and a national of, that State.

i.e. UK national (only) resident in CH - tax in UK. CH national resident in CH - tax in CH.

[Odile]

	Quote:	baboon
	Different tax treaty, different rules. Odile is correct in both cases, in this case Odile and her OH being Swiss mean she pays tax in Switzerland.

As BM says, this is the case here. We did pay tax here before OH became Swiss. And we have a very good accountant. That is because we have no revenue or pension in Switzerland at all (b*gger this- but ...). And yes, Freddy is a great accountant.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	We have a UK pension which is taxed in Switzerland. We tried the DT thing but the tax office here wanted proof of the tax paid on it in the UK and since it is below the UK taxable income threshold there was none so they include it in the taxable income here. It may be different in other cantons.

The UK government will confirm that the 'Pension was subject to UK tax' even through none is actually paid. You should also get a P60 with a UK tax code., which should be proof enough. My UK tax code is NT which means No Tax as I elected for it to be taxed elsewhere.

You can also make a pension partially taxable in Multiple countries to take advantage of multiple tax allowances in multiple countries.

Essentially Zero tax can be paid in the UK , but it's counted as taxable in the UK.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But if you read this article, it would appear that the payment of certain elements of teachers' pensions is inextricably linked to their state pension... https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/m...r-pension.aspx

The state pension is not only taxable in the UK, it does not come under the HMRC definition of government pension, so your adding nothing to your argument.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

As I understand it, there's an entire section of the forum dedicated to the masturbatory musings of money nerds. I have it on permanent ignore.

Just sayin', like.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I know a cluster of old ladies (my best mate's nan is one of the group), who spend every winter in Spain and have been doing so for the last 20+yrs. They go out late September, come home for 2 weeks at Christmas, then go back to Spain til mid May.

These folks have at least two houses. If you live that kind of lifestyle you have zero reason to lament if it falls apart when life take a wrong turn. Perhaps they should have lived a bit less lavishly to begin with.

The world is in permanent change. You're entitled to participate but you're not entitled to positive changes only.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The UK government will confirm that the 'Pension was subject to UK tax' even through none is actually paid. You should also get a P60 with a UK tax code., which should be proof enough. My UK tax code is NT which means No Tax as I elected for it to be taxed elsewhere. You can also make a pension partially taxable in Multiple countries to take advantage of multiple tax allowances in multiple countries. Essentially Zero tax can be paid in the UK , but it's counted as taxable in the UK.

They don’t issue a P60 for a state pension. The fact that it was subject to UK tax even though none was actually paid made zero difference whatsoever to the Neuchâtel tax authorities.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The discussion is about taxation of teachers pensions, you chose to take my comments out of contest to prove a point. Teachers have to be able to admit they are sometimes wrong. I provided a link to the DT form which you chose to ignore, it states:- ‘Government’ pensions Many, but not all, treaties have special rules that apply if the pension is paid for service to the UK government or a local authority. Under many treaties the UK will retain primary taxing rights over a ‘government’ pension. The DT Digest will help you to decide if relief from UK tax is available on your ‘government’ pension. If these rules mean that your pension will be taxed in the UK, you may be able to claim UK personal allowances, provided that you satisfy certain conditions. If you have any questions or wish to make a claim, please contact HM Revenue & Customs at the address in Note 6." Clearly Teaching does not come under this definition......

Teachers do work for local author- oh never mind.

Didn't choose to ignore anything. Also didn't choose to take what you said out of context (no s). I disagreed with something you said and here we are. I'm tapping out of the brow beating session because I cba, frankly. De-knot your knickers and read what I originally wrote. Got scones to make and a small person to wrangle. Have a good one.