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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13921  
Old 12.10.2018, 20:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The EU's fault says Raab- because they are not prepared to meet the Uk's ambition and pragmatism - so there
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  #13922  
Old 13.10.2018, 12:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I'd disagree with it being a privilege, though. If you've put the work in and been prudent with the money all your life, why shouldn't you be able to retire wherever you want to be?

There may be some luck involved in that you've been able to keep your finances under control but I wouldn't class it as privilege as such. Up till now people had a "right" to move and live within the EU as long as conditions permitted. And it's all about "rights", right?

Because you need a residence permit and other permits in order to move wherever you like, of course provided you can afford it. Does the host country have enough infrastructure? Do they have enough hospitals, housing, water, waste processing factories etc? Who's going to take care of the elderly coming from different countries, as they will not be exactly tourists? Money alone cannot always buy all of these. Buying properties in a country you have no ties to or you didn't produce your pension in is also putting a lot of pressure on the locals purchase power. Young families there can see the real estate becoming more and more expensive year by year and they'll be left out of this game.
These rights were too much. Every country should have the right to decide who are they taking in. Of course, I cannot agree with "ethnic cleansing" as other poster had put it, but neither with these "rights" when they don't benefit the local folks. Seriously, if you're living in a weaker state you see all sort of "investors" who're doing nothing but speculating the low prices on certain markets to make huge profits out of other people's countries. The locals are always, always losing. This is EU for some. I can't agree with this lie anymore.
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  #13923  
Old 13.10.2018, 12:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Because you need a residence permit and other permits in order to move wherever you like, of course provided you can afford it. Does the host country have enough infrastructure? Do they have enough hospitals, housing, water, waste processing factories etc? Who's going to take care of the elderly coming from different countries, as they will not be exactly tourists? Money alone cannot always buy all of these. Buying properties in a country you have no ties to or you didn't produce your pension in is also putting a lot of pressure on the locals purchase power. Young families there can see the real estate becoming more and more expensive year by year and they'll be left out of this game.
These rights were too much. Every country should have the right to decide who are they taking in. Of course, I cannot agree with "ethnic cleansing" as other poster had put it, but neither with these "rights" when they don't benefit the local folks. Seriously, if you're living in a weaker state you see all sort of "investors" who're doing nothing but speculating the low prices on certain markets to make huge profits out of other people's countries. The locals are always, always losing. This is EU for some. I can't agree with this lie anymore.
Not sure you quite get it. The whole point is that EU people who went to work or retire in another EU country, did NOT need residence permits .
And yes, the EU countries chosen by UK workers or retirees DO have the necessary infrastructure. UK retirees also via form S1, had part of their healthcare paid for by reciprocal agreement. Because it was the EU!

And if you look at France, Spain and Italy- they bought places where the locals did not want to buy, or were only too happy to get rid of inherited houses - away from urban centres where the locals work.

These houses now have been renovated at huge cost, and very well indeed - but are virtually impossible to sell and recoup the money - because the locals do NOT want them, do NOT want to live there- up in the Marche mountains, or deepest Dordogneshire or the Gers, etc.

The UK's infrastructure could not indeed accomodate all those retirees back from Spain, France or Italy if they were forced to return with just the shirt on their back - in need of housing, social and health care.

Last edited by Odile; 13.10.2018 at 15:33.
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  #13924  
Old 13.10.2018, 14:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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These rights were too much. Every country should have the right to decide who are they taking in. Of course, I cannot agree with "ethnic cleansing" as other poster had put it, but neither with these "rights" when they don't benefit the local folks. Seriously, if you're living in a weaker state you see all sort of "investors" who're doing nothing but speculating the low prices on certain markets to make huge profits out of other people's countries. The locals are always, always losing. This is EU for some. I can't agree with this lie anymore.
Then you fail to understand the basic principles of a single market. Which is why third country status is all that can be considered.
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  #13925  
Old 13.10.2018, 16:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Because you need a residence permit and other permits in order to move wherever you like, of course provided you can afford it. Does the host country have enough infrastructure? Do they have enough hospitals, housing, water, waste processing factories etc? Who's going to take care of the elderly coming from different countries, as they will not be exactly tourists? Money alone cannot always buy all of these. Buying properties in a country you have no ties to or you didn't produce your pension in is also putting a lot of pressure on the locals purchase power. Young families there can see the real estate becoming more and more expensive year by year and they'll be left out of this game.
These rights were too much. Every country should have the right to decide who are they taking in. Of course, I cannot agree with "ethnic cleansing" as other poster had put it, but neither with these "rights" when they don't benefit the local folks. Seriously, if you're living in a weaker state you see all sort of "investors" who're doing nothing but speculating the low prices on certain markets to make huge profits out of other people's countries. The locals are always, always losing. This is EU for some. I can't agree with this lie anymore.
When such people move in then they bring spending power which in turn provides jobs for the locals; jobs that otherwise would not exist.
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  #13926  
Old 13.10.2018, 16:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Many working British Expats have been paying into their new host EU countries Social Security system
as well as their host EU countries state pension. Unless they have managed to work for the
minimum number of years to qualify for their host countries state pension ( in their own right )
before they retire, they all stand to lose thanks to Brexit.

For example in Spain you would have had to have worked and contributed for 15 years to be entitled
to a Spanish state pension in your own right. Thanks to Brexit those working British Expats in Spain
who fail to build up 15 years contributions, stand to get nothing, whereas if the UK remained in the
EU, they would have been entitled to a pro-rata amount of that 15 year entitlement, so long as the
number of years the Brit had been working and paying into the UK's NI contributions or any other
EU countries state pensions system, meets or exceeds the 15 year entitlement for Spain of course.

Other countries are different, eg in Germany you need to have only made 5 years contributions into
the German pension fund, the Deutsche Rentenversicherung Bund (DRB), to be entitled to the minimum
DRB German State pension upon retirement ( in your own right )
If you don't meet the qualification periods in Germany but have worked elsewhere in the European
Union, you may be eligible to use the total number of years worked within the EU to count towards
qualifying for a pro-rata German pension. In some cases, your years worked in other EU countries
can influence a higher German pension rate. The EU website explains it in detail.

Of course British Expats living and working in Switzerland, no doubt laugh at the idea of seeing
any value in another EU countries ( inc the UK's ) State Pension ( except the Swiss one of course )
because your paid so much during your Swiss working lives anyway.




Am I right ?

FYI - Once again the lowest state pension in the developed world for 2018 is the UK !!
Where pensioners in the United Kingdom suffer from the worst deal of any OECD country,
receiving just 29% of a working wage when they retire.
To put this into perspective, the OECD average is 63% and the average for EU member
states is 71%.

Last edited by John William; 13.10.2018 at 16:59.
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  #13927  
Old 13.10.2018, 17:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When such people move in then they bring spending power which in turn provides jobs for the locals; jobs that otherwise would not exist.
Nonsense, those jobs are also filled by immigrants. Perhaps you have no idea who's working on the Spanish and Italian construction sites, hotels, etc. Italy is ageing - dramatically. If you have the curiosity - many Italian nurses are looking for a job in Germany, etc. Spanish nurses are among the first four nationalities working in the UK hospitals, last time I checked. You see it as something beneficial but those benefits are not that big at the end of the day.
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  #13928  
Old 13.10.2018, 17:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Because you need a residence permit and other permits in order to move wherever you like, of course provided you can afford it. Does the host country have enough infrastructure? Do they have enough hospitals, housing, water, waste processing factories etc? Who's going to take care of the elderly coming from different countries, as they will not be exactly tourists? Money alone cannot always buy all of these. Buying properties in a country you have no ties to or you didn't produce your pension in is also putting a lot of pressure on the locals purchase power. Young families there can see the real estate becoming more and more expensive year by year and they'll be left out of this game.
These rights were too much. Every country should have the right to decide who are they taking in. Of course, I cannot agree with "ethnic cleansing" as other poster had put it, but neither with these "rights" when they don't benefit the local folks. Seriously, if you're living in a weaker state you see all sort of "investors" who're doing nothing but speculating the low prices on certain markets to make huge profits out of other people's countries. The locals are always, always losing. This is EU for some. I can't agree with this lie anymore.
OK, so I was just referring back to a section of this thread where it seemed to be ok for some people to make it their mission to secure an EU passport after Brexit through whatever means is open to them, then go on acting like any EU citizen, benefiting from all that's on offer because that's their "right", whilst cheerily giving a big "FU" to any Brit not able to do that.

Now suddenly people should grow a conscience and do a full assessment whether the country they wish to retire in can accommodate them?

Struggling to see anything besides the hypocrisy in all this, and the whole Brexit thing does seem to have brought out an "I'm all right, Jack!" attitude in many people. Not saying that attitude wasn't there before, it just seems people aren't embarrassed to be openly seen like that any more. Maybe it's the "expat bubble" in Switzerland which is providing a safe base for all the bravado and bluster, though.

To be fair, in my earlier post about retiring to the EU I did say that "if you meet the conditions", not "just barge in, set up and hope for the best whilst relying on that country's infrastructure to carry you until you slip off the mortal coil".
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  #13929  
Old 13.10.2018, 17:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Many working British Expats have been paying into their new host EU countries Social Security system
as well as their host EU countries state pension. Unless they have managed to work for the
minimum number of years to qualify for their host countries state pension ( in their own right )
before they retire, they all stand to lose thanks to Brexit.

For example in Spain you would have had to have worked and contributed for 15 years to be entitled
to a Spanish state pension in your own right. Thanks to Brexit those working British Expats in Spain
who fail to build up 15 years contributions, stand to get nothing, whereas if the UK remained in the
EU, they would have been entitled to a pro-rata amount of that 15 year entitlement, so long as the
number of years the Brit had been working and paying into the UK's NI contributions or any other
EU countries state pensions system, meets or exceeds the 15 year entitlement for Spain of course.

Other countries are different, eg in Germany you need to have only made 5 years contributions into
the German pension fund, the Deutsche Rentenversicherung Bund (DRB), to be entitled to the minimum
DRB German State pension upon retirement ( in your own right )
If you don't meet the qualification periods in Germany but have worked elsewhere in the European
Union, you may be eligible to use the total number of years worked within the EU to count towards
qualifying for a pro-rata German pension. In some cases, your years worked in other EU countries
can influence a higher German pension rate. The EU website explains it in detail.

Of course British Expats living and working in Switzerland, no doubt laugh at the idea of seeing
any value in another EU countries ( inc the UK's ) State Pension ( except the Swiss one of course )
because your paid so much during your Swiss working lives anyway.




Am I right ?

FYI - Once again the lowest state pension in the developed world for 2018 is the UK !!
Where pensioners in the United Kingdom suffer from the worst deal of any OECD country,
receiving just 29% of a working wage when they retire.
To put this into perspective, the OECD average is 63% and the average for EU member
states is 71%.
I don't believe you're correct, if you're not entitled to a Spanish pension now, you get nothing. Each countries pension is calculated & paid separately often on different dates.

UK pension includes free National Health Service, this is a very valuable extra that Swiss Pensioners would pay for, UK pensioners in CH don't pay UK government pays their insurance with just a 300 excess.

UK did not have compulsory pension payments above 1st Pillar, they do now & rates will rise again in April. You need to look at the social deductions working in France or Germany, nothing in life is free.
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  #13930  
Old 13.10.2018, 17:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nonsense, those jobs are also filled by immigrants.
A population of retirees from another EU country creates work for locals. Can you offer a documented example of where the opposite is the case?

Quote:
FYI - Once again the lowest state pension in the developed world for 2018 is the UK !!
Where pensioners in the United Kingdom suffer from the worst deal of any OECD country,
receiving just 29% of a working wage when they retire.
To put this into perspective, the OECD average is 63% and the average for EU member
states is 71%.
Precisely, and very little has changed in that respect.

I remember doing a college project back in the 80's about the differences across Europe, when it came to social care. Italy led the way in old age pensions and Hungary had the best maternity pay system, because they were seeing a severe drop in the birth rate and put plans into place to counter this. 15yrs later, I read a trade union research paper on the same subject and very little had changed.

Why the hell should a British pensioner be forced to stay in the UK, where thousands every year are subject to fuel poverty, when they can support themselves well enough to live longer and happier elsewhere? More to the point, what right do any of us have to dictate to them how they spend their money after working for it all their lives?
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  #13931  
Old 13.10.2018, 17:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why the hell should a British pensioner be forced to stay in the UK, where thousands every year are subject to fuel poverty, when they can support themselves well enough to live longer and happier elsewhere? More to the point, what right do any of us have to dictate to them how they spend their money after working for it all their lives?
They are not & never have been at any time in history.
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  #13932  
Old 13.10.2018, 17:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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They are not & never have been at any time in history.
I really don't understand your reply as pensioners / being retired is a relatively new status.
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  #13933  
Old 13.10.2018, 18:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why the hell should a British pensioner be forced to stay in the UK, where thousands every year are subject to fuel poverty, when they can support themselves well enough to live longer and happier elsewhere? More to the point, what right do any of us have to dictate to them how they spend their money after working for it all their lives?
Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. If people have the money to retire abroad, they can apply for the appropriate residence permit just like any other foreigner. People were retiring abroad long before the EU even existed. People will continue to do so long after the EU has disappeared into the dustbin of stupid ideas.

This all seems like a lot of fuss over nothing.
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  #13934  
Old 13.10.2018, 18:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

But the point is that, within the EU, that was NOT necessary until now.

What about health care- what are they supposed to do about it? As it was covered by reciprocal agreement, because they paid for it via the UK system all their lives- and certainly not budgeted for- and this combined with great loss of revenue due to falling pound. I am not asking about myself, here in CH - but for those who carefully planned their move from and to the EU.

And yes, they may well be 'forced' to move back to UK in droves - because pension at such low £ value my no longer be sufficient, and health care not available, unless at massive cost. Try to apply for private insurance when over 60 with multiple pre-exisiting conditions. You can in Switzerland - but not in other countries.

There are ways and other ways, of being forced to change course. Do you think the UK would cope with a mass influx of older returnees, in need of social housing, social care and health care- right now? (again, not talking about ourselves- as we have property in the UK and made plans for plan B, C, D to Z.
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  #13935  
Old 13.10.2018, 18:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But the point is that, within the EU, that was NOT necessary until now.

What about health care- what are they supposed to do about it? As it was covered by reciprocal agreement, because they paid for it via the UK system all their lives- and certainly not budgeted for- and this combined with great loss of revenue due to falling pound. I am not asking about myself, here in CH - but for those who carefully planned their move from and to the EU.

And yes, they may well be 'forced' to move back to UK in droves - because pension at such low £ value my no longer be sufficient, and health care not available, unless at massive cost. Try to apply for private insurance when over 60 with multiple pre-exisiting conditions. You can in Switzerland - but not in other countries.
Nothing is guaranteed even within the EU. I'm sure retirees in Greece are chuffed to bits with the standard of local health services since the economy collapsed a decade ago. I'm sure retirees in Cyprus were delighted when the government removed money from their bank accounts at short notice a couple of years back.

Shit happens with or without the EU. Nothing is guaranteed for anyone.
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  #13936  
Old 13.10.2018, 18:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I really don't understand your reply as pensioners / being retired is a relatively new status.
At no time in History have Brits not been able to live abroad, both before & after the OAP was started. Living much past the working age of 65 is indeed fairly new.

My Grandmother who died in 1976 lived in France for over 25 years, her eldest son lived in Italy for over 50 years, both born in the U.K.
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But the point is that, within the EU, that was NOT necessary until now.

What about health care- what are they supposed to do about it? As it was covered by reciprocal agreement, because they paid for it via the UK system all their lives- and certainly not budgeted for- and this combined with great loss of revenue due to falling pound. I am not asking about myself, here in CH - but for those who carefully planned their move from and to the EU.
The UK will probably still pay for health cover, the cost won't change in any way. No reason to pull out of the reciprocal payment system which is all it really is.

People should always budget for health insurance as it gives them peace of mind & choice.
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  #13937  
Old 13.10.2018, 18:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't believe you're correct, if you're not entitled to a Spanish pension now, you get nothing. Each countries pension is calculated & paid separately often on different dates.

UK pension includes free National Health Service, this is a very valuable extra that Swiss Pensioners would pay for, UK pensioners in CH don't pay UK government pays their insurance with just a 300 excess.

UK did not have compulsory pension payments above 1st Pillar, they do now & rates will rise again in April. You need to look at the social deductions working in France or Germany, nothing in life is free.
Its not whether entitled to a Spanish pension now it's whether your entitled to a Spanish Pension
when you come to retire - read my post and the link to the EU website carefully - next time !!
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  #13938  
Old 13.10.2018, 19:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

'People should always budget for health insurance as it gives them peace of mind & choice.'

Retirees in FRance could pay a small sum for a top up to give more choice. Why would they budget for private health care when it was guaranteed within the EU, with only small sums involved for top up.

Now, you can budget all you want- but if you are over 60 and have pre-exisiting conditions, be they due to illness or previous serious accident/s - you can just forget it. Computer says 'NO' and that is the end of it.

Sorry to say this, but I am not sure Bupa would cover you now.

Of course nothing is ever totally guaranteed- but the people I know who retired in France did their research VERY carefully, and budgeted very wisely too - nothing, but nothing, could have led them to fathom the terrible situation they are facing now.

DB, you did not reply. Do you think the UK is currently in a position to deal with hordes of UK retirees coming back from FRance and other EU countries in need of housing, social and healthcare?
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  #13939  
Old 13.10.2018, 19:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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DB, you did not reply. Do you think the UK is currently in a position to deal with hordes of UK retirees coming back from FRance and other EU countries in need of housing, social and healthcare?
I didn't reply because I don't know. I'd be surprised if "hordes" of UK retirees did return to the United Kingdom anyway. I think this whole business is overexaggerated, quite frankly.
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Old 13.10.2018, 20:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

According the Süddeutsche Zeitung, which got an internal paper a deal could be made this Sunday. With one condition: Nothing has to be leaked and made public before hand.

Timetable would be:
March 21 2019 UK leaves the EU and is no longer a Member,
a transition period (soft exit) until January 1 2021 all trade and other agreement remain in force and a final agreement can be negotiated.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...ehen-1.4168879
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