The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	Again, this is disconcertingly vague. We are already able to act in favor of our own interests, but on many issues (e.g. immigration, benefits) we chose not to.

It's not vague at all. An example - the UK will be able to strike trade deals where there are no tariffs on garlic to protect French farmers, reducing the price of garlic for UK shoppers.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It's not vague at all. An example - the UK will be able to strike trade deals where there are no tariffs on garlic to protect French farmers, reducing the price of garlic for UK shoppers.

They should have put this on the side of the bus, I'd have been Leave 100% then.

[lewton]

	Quote:
	How can you "offer more sovereignty"?

It is very edible I hear.
Of he will not have to taste it in his little Swiss bubble.

[lewton]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Because 45% - 48% of their exports go to the EU, would be a starting point. There is no chance that anyone is going to agree to a trade deal in financial services. You can not have a situation where entities outside the jurisdiction would be in a position to rake havoc with the market.

You are right here, but what I meant is that they should either remain in the Single Market and have it all, or go for a good trade deal but no customs union.
A customs union would combine the negatives of both options with a bit of the positives.

[lewton]

	Quote:
	Again, this is disconcertingly vague. We are already able to act in favor of our own interests, but on many issues (e.g. immigration, benefits) we chose not to.

Exactly!
The UK chose the high moral way of letting all from the new member states to come in from day 1 when most other counties used the maximum allowed delays in implementing freedom of movement.
This was great (no irony).
And even more so because it was right after the crisis.

Today Germany is practically begging people from Eastern Europe to move here, and it accepts any non European with a job offer (family members included), while the UK acts like a hysterical old lady.

[marton]

	Quote:	lewton
	Exactly! The UK chose the high moral way of letting all from the new member states to come in from day 1 when most other counties used the maximum allowed delays in implementing freedom of movement. This was great (no irony). And even more so because it was right after the crisis. Today Germany is practically begging people from Eastern Europe to move here, and it accepts any non European with a job offer (family members included), while the UK acts like a hysterical old lady.

Well it is important to recognise UK reality versus what they say!

In the year ending March 2018 the official statistics of net immigration to UK are
EU 87,000
non-EU 235,000

The gross immigration (excluding emigration) was 614,000 so one can hardly claim the UK is anti immigration

Source

So whatever new controls they devise for EU immigrants the reality is the number of non-EU immigrants (who are fully UK controlled) is almost three times the number of EU immigrants.

In fact the number of EU immigrants is trivial

[lewton]

	Quote:	marton
	Well it is important to recognise UK reality versus what they say! In the year ending March 2018 the official statistics of net immigration to UK are EU 87,000 non-EU 235,000 The gross immigration (excluding emigration) was 614,000 so one can hardly claim the UK is anti immigration Source So whatever new controls they devise for EU immigrants the reality is the number of non-EU immigrants (who are fully UK controlled) is almost three times the number of EU immigrants. In fact the number of EU immigrants is trivial

And what was the situation before the referendum?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	"Sovreignty" is a bit of an ethereal concept as far as I can see.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Excuse me for dealing in what's tangible.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The early 80's was a fabulous time for young people, at 21 I was earning twice as much as my father

It was shite for many young people. I was one of Maggie's Millions for 2 solid years from Feb 1984 - March 1986, and my only way out was to go self-employed.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I bought a flat which today is worth £985,000 according to mouseprice. How many 21 year old first time buyers can spend a million on a home today without any help from their parents?

False comparison. What was the flat actually worth when you bought it? Where was it? And I don't know anyone who could actually turn to their parents for help to buy a house, now or then.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	My friends at University got free education.

BS!!!
I lost the degreee place I was offered in 1983 because my dad died on May 15th, so I lost the 'parental contribution' and the cut off date for full grant applications was April 24th.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	How exactly are todays kids in a better position than 35 years ago, answers on a post card

How is any of that based upon membership of the EU and not UK government policies? But to answer your question, and rewinding to before the referendum...

any kid can go to uni, regardless of their financial circumstances at the beginning of their course - UK government policy

My home town set up a fantastic youth centre with an EU grant that covers 55+% of the costs. Didn't have that at any time before. - EU funding.

Kids could study abroad thanks the Erasmus scheme. - EU policy.

Do you need me to go on? Perhaps you should write a list of all the benefits you had and that kids today have, and decide which are UK government and EU policies.

[marton]

	Quote:	lewton
	And what was the situation before the referendum?

Google is your friend.

But why do you think that is relevant?

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	The early 80's was a fabulous time for young people, at 21 I was earning twice as much as my father, I bought a flat which today is worth £985,000 according to mouseprice. How many 21 year old first time buyers can spend a million on a home today without any help from their parents? I also bought my first Porsche 911. My friends at University got free education.

Adjusted for inflation since 1981 that's less than £250k.

[baboon]

	Quote:	lewton
	And what was the situation before the referendum?

Has been posted on this thread before. Minimum 50% of UK immigration is non-EU. More or much more in most years. See this for example
https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-...AaAq6qEALw_wcB

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Kids could study abroad thanks the Erasmus scheme. - EU policy.

like the Swiss

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Adjusted for inflation since 1981 that's less than £250k.

My years earnings exceeded the purchase price, how many 21 year olds earn over £250k or could afford to buy a property for £250k without substantial parental help today.

You do realise that £250k was roughly 10 times the costs of the average UK house at the time.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Adjusted for inflation since 1981 that's less than £250k.

About the same as now then: average UK home price in region of 230k.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	My years earnings exceeded the purchase price, how many 21 year olds earn over £250k or could afford to buy a property for £250k without substantial parental help today.

Why is "today" relevant? How many earned that back when you did?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	like the Swiss

No not like the limited access the Swiss used to enjoy and will now have to wait until 2021 before they may regain that access.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	My years earnings exceeded the purchase price, how many 21 year olds earn over £250k or could afford to buy a property for £250k without substantial parental help today.

Not many. Then or now. Or 31 year olds for that matter. Why the seemingly incessant need to state how well you did? While it's clearly wonderful and impressive, it's not the standard experience is it? And it's not directly related to the issue in hand or am I missing something? I'm prepared to bet that as well as you having the necessary skills and ability to roll with all those punches in order to earn all that lovely money, there was also an element of right place right time, sheer dumb luck involved. Unless I've seriously underestimated how life seems to work.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Why is "today" relevant? How many earned that back when you did?

Was Britain better 35 years ago, I would say resoundingly YES for someone who still can hardly read & write.

For the higher educated intellectuals in this thread the answer would appear to be NO, which seems very sad to me.

Only people who left school at 16, of course. The purchase price was £40,000 above the asking Price of £38,500, not the £250,000 speculated.

In real terms house prices are 4 times more expensive relative to earnings, thank deregulation of mortgage lending & dual incomes. Life was clearly better in the early 80's I lived in central London with a 15 minute bike ride to work.

	Quote:
	Not many. Then or now. Or 31 year olds for that matter. Why the seemingly incessant need to state how well you did? While it's clearly wonderful and impressive, it's not the standard experience is it? And it's not directly related to the issue in hand or am I missing something? I'm prepared to bet that as well as you having the necessary skills and ability to roll with all those punches in order to earn all that lovely money, there was also an element of right place right time, sheer dumb luck involved. Unless I've seriously underestimated how life seems to work.

Your missing the point, like was easier for young people in the 1980's. I don't think I did particularly well, I know people who have done substantially better some highly educated others not.

You are missing something, you have a very narrow view of how life works. Surely plenty of young kids became millionaires due to BITCOIN or does that not count?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The early 80's was a fabulous time for young people, at 21 I was earning twice as much as my father, I bought a flat which today is worth £985,000 according to mouseprice. How many 21 year old first time buyers can spend a million on a home today without any help from their parents? I also bought my first Porsche 911. My friends at University got free education. How exactly are todays kids in a better position than 35 years ago, answers on a post card

It might have been a great time for you, but it was most definitely not a great time for most you people. Try coming from a farming or mining background in the 80s and see what fun it was not.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Was Britain better 35 years ago, I would say resoundingly YES for someone who still can hardly read & write. For the higher educated intellectuals in this thread the answer would appear to be NO, which seems very sad to me. Only people who left school at 16, of course. The purchase price was £40,000 above the asking Price of £38,500, not the £250,000 speculated. In real terms house prices are 4 times more expensive relative to earnings, thank deregulation of mortgage lending & dual incomes. Life was clearly better in the early 80's I lived in central London with a 15 minute bike ride to work.

So luck was indeed involved, then.

It all depends on your circumstances. If you were single and able to move around then, yes, perhaps things were easier, as they probably are today. Not much change.

The acid test is when you have a family and are much more rooted to a spot. Yes, you could move somewhere to a new job but it's much harder when you are established with a growing family.

Your view of the past is just your own, though. If you were comfortably well off with property in a booming area then cool, you're entitled to enjoy your humble brag.

You don't have to be a "higher educated intellectual" to understand that it would have been different for everyone at that time. Same as it is today.