The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Odile
	amogles I probably missed a trick here, but do educate me- could you give me a list of foreign companies that own, manage and sell essential utilities to Switzerland, like electricity, gas, water? Thanks. Most of those in the UK were sold to, and run by French, German and other foreign companies- and therefore have a massive hold on the UK.

If things got out of hand (which they wouldn't, as it's in no ones interest) then in they could always be renationalised. This has to be pretty low down on the list of things to be concerned about.

[Odile]

Oh, forgot the Scotts- who are very likely to break off if Brexit comes through.

You just can't compare the agreements Switzerland has managed to negotiate- to those (see art 50 please) that the UK may, or more likely may NOT, be able to secure after Brexit- and not for a very long time anyhow. Being massively dependent on power and water from Germany, France and Scotland may well bite the UK back on the proverbial. If they decide to hike prices - what other options would there be for the UK, but to bow and pay.

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	The displays of hate and ignorance in the UK have bothered me lately. Parliament will have to change many laws before an exit from the EU can be achieved, and my hope is that parliament will refuse to back the referendum (and not make the new laws) and instead call for a general election.

650 MPs vs 65 million people. I'd love to see them try and ignore the result.

[baboon]

	Quote:	amogles
	Where do you think your cheap Swiss electricity comes from? Those big massive cable lines that cross the borders from France and Germany. Are you so so sure they're never ever used?...

Most years Switzerland is a net exporter of electricity.

[amogles]

	Quote:	baboon
	Most years Switzerland is a net exporter of electricity.

net exporter, yes, but on an hour to hour or even minute to minute level the direction of flow changes frequently. Without access to foreign reserve capacity, Switzerland would have to massively invest in backup generating infrastructure and this would drive up prices.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Odile
	Oh, forgot the Scotts- who are very likely to break off if Brexit comes through. You just can't compare the agreements Switzerland has managed to negotiate- to those (see art 50 please) that the UK may, or more likely may NOT, be able to secure after Brexit- and not for a very long time anyhow. Being massively dependent on power and water from Germany, France and Scotland may well bite the UK back on the proverbial. If they decide to hike prices - what other options would there be for the UK, but to bow and pay.

Maybe said Scottish and German companies are also reliant on the UK as a market to export to. Retaliation is not a one way street and although I do at times have little faith in our politicians, they are not going to be as stupid as the Remainers are tyring to tell us.

Anyway, the remainers are also threatening us by saying that a Brexit will massively hurt British industry, This would imply electricity demand will nosedive.

Or are they trying to have it both ways?

[Don Molina]

	Quote:	amogles
	net exporter, yes, but on an hour to hour or even minute to minute level the direction of flow changes frequently. Without access to foreign reserve capacity, Switzerland would have to massively invest in backup generating infrastructure and this would drive up prices.

Switzerland is already quite adept at storing energy by reversing the dams. They do it quite a lot, not so much for "safekeeping" but more to trade power depending on spot prices. So CH's power companies have invested and it is already priced in.

Also if power becomes expensive Britain has a problem.
If power is not a problem because demand went to hell, then Britain has an even bigger problem.

It's not having cakes after eating them, it's just stopping for a moment and thinking about it. Which I don't really see happening a lot lately

Everybody is out to make sensationalist comments, more based on what they feel and then backwards rationalising said feelings.

I think I see a lot more of those from the Brexit side of the "argument", than the other way round.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Don Molina
	Switzerland is already quite adept at storing energy by reversing the dams. They do it quite a lot, not so much for "safekeeping" but more to trade power depending on spot prices. So CH's power companies have invested and it is already priced in.

Many of the big storage dams were commenced in the 1950s and 1960s, at a time that the electricity market was still very much cartelized if not monopolozed and long before there was much scope for commercial trading, so I would say their prime goal was energy security and that trading has become a secondary benefit.

Of course today they make a killing by buying cheap French nuclear power at night (and indeed crazily subsidized and polluting German lignite power, also at night) and selling it as premium green hydro power in the peak, some of it back to the countries they bought it from in the first place.

	Quote:	Don Molina
	Also if power becomes expensive Britain has a problem. If power is not a problem because demand went to hell, then Britain has an even bigger problem.

About 25% of electricity used in the UK is imported. But this is not entirely the fault of a generating shortfall. Many domestic plants are not all being run to capacity (and indeed a number are mothballed) because French nuclear power, being so very cheap, is just the more attractive proposition. I assume significant chunks of that underutilized capacity could be brought online within weeks rather than years.

However, this whole thing is a scare scenario as I don't think people like EdF, who export French nuclear power by way of expensive and recently upgraded underwater cables are going to stand by and write off those expensive investments. That's not the way business and lobbying works.

	Quote:	Don Molina
	It's not having cakes after eating them, it's just stopping for a moment and thinking about it. Which I don't really see happening a lot lately

It's also about believing your own predictions. If somebody says, electricity demand will drop as manufacturing shuts down, but yet base their further maths on the assumption that it stays the same

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	650 MPs vs 65 million people. I'd love to see them try and ignore the result.

Whichever side wins they will probably have less than 20 million votes; many of the 65 million are too young to vote or too apathetic

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If things got out of hand (which they wouldn't, as it's in no ones interest) then in they could always be renationalised. This has to be pretty low down on the list of things to be concerned about.

Renationalised? So there go the forecast financial savings?

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	For somebody living in Switzerland you only need to look around you. Look how Zürich coped when all the banks relocated to Frankfurt. Look at how people have stopped byuing new cars due to the massive tarriffs. And let's not mention how the lights went out when Switzerland's oil wells ran dry. Meanwhile countries like Greece and Spain are facing the economic crunch. I bet they wished that they were inside the EU rather than outside.

But the bilateral treaties mean that for all practical purposes switzerland is in the EU; FMOP, Schengen, free trade, &&&&&

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	Renationalised? So there go the forecast financial savings?

This whole diuscussion is seeing people outdoing one another with scare scenarios.

Maybe renationalization is a tactic of last resort, or something to rattle in the faces of foreign utlities as a threat when they hike their prices unreasonably because Odile has so politely asked them to. But all this is pretty improbable, no?

Even if foreign governments start doing irrational self-damaging things out of spite (which is already highly unlikely), how likely is it that private corporations will tick off their shareholders by doing even more self damaging nonsense?

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	This whole diuscussion is seeing people outdoing one another with scare scenarios. Maybe renationalization is a tactic of last resort, or something to rattle in the faces of foreign utlities as a threat when they hike their prices unreasonably because Odile has so politely asked them to. But all this is pretty improbable, no?

True, basically because there are very few facts in the pot!

[jacek]

This is Lisa Maxwell's post that sums it up pretty well ...

As a busy working mum of two young children, I've never really had the time to keep up with Politics! So I admit it has taken some effort to get my head round both sides of the most topical argument of our time: Whether Britain should Leave or Remain in the EU.

Whilst taking in both sides of the argument, I have come to feel many things. Frustration at so many misleading statements! Anger around the lack of visibility of the voice of certain leaders like the head of the Labour party! But most of all, SADNESS… that a great injustice is being done as many people don’t know what they are voting for because they have been misled by statements that pull on their hearts and emotions.

I thought I’d post my perspective, as a mum who's thinking about her children and their future, pulling on points I have discovered from others. I hope this will be helpful to others who may still be "on the fence".

Please share if you found this useful!

Let me start with a list of high profile figures and institutions on each side. Some may surprise you!

Remain:

Former British Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major (1 – see Sources below)
The Labour party (2)
Every other major UK political party leader including Nicola Sturgeon (3)
Barack Obama (4)
Hillary Clinton (5)
Angela Merkel (6)
Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (7)
Sir Richard Branson (8)
40 religious leaders (9)
300 leading historians (10)
The Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (11)
88% of economists (12)
The National Farmers Union (13)
The Bank of England (14)
The Chief Executive of NHS England (15)
The Royal College of Midwives (16)
Multiple businesses including Ford Motor Company (17) and Rolls Royce (18)

Leave:

The Sun Newspaper
The BNP
The UKIP Party
Nigel Farage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove
Donald Trump

What has become majorly apparent to me, has been the overwhelming consensus among leaders and experts of all kinds that Britain is stronger in Europe. Just look at that list. Look at it!

So, why then, are so many British people thinking differently to that Remain list, according to the current polls? My observation is that these are the three most common lines people are being fed, and are believing:

Line Number 1: “We shouldn’t be governed by unelected bureaucrats, we should decide our own laws and how we spend our own money!!”

So, I asked myself, what % of our laws are actually generated by the EU versus our own country?? – can you guess? It’s actually a hard number to derive, but according to the House of Commons Library Report, it’s 7% (19). Yes, only 7%!!!
The UK manages its own Budget. Manages how it spends its income, how much to spend on Health versus Education etc… Oh, and the NHS is a British institution governed solely in the UK.

I’ve also come to appreciate that it actually makes sense to share some laws, because we all breathe in the same air, share oceans, and live on the same planet. If we come together as a region to share some common laws, say on air pollution, rather than making different laws, the results are more powerful, and more easily implemented for big businesses which operate across the region. We’re also all at risk of terrorism, we can protect ourselves more effectively if we co-operate and share intelligence across the region.

Line Number 2: “We pay £350 million a week to the EU, that’s £50 million a day, £18.8 billion a year!! If we leave, the money saved could save our NHS!!”

OK - a tough one. Because on the face of things we are talking big big numbers here! So I can see why people get angry. But this is complicated. The following points are really, really important, the above statement cannot be considered in isolation:

- Those numbers are misleading because they don’t take account of the rebate the UK gets from the EU or the spending by the EU on the UK. In 2014 following the rebate and spending in the UK from the EU, we paid £5.7 billion which equates to 0.3% of UK GDP, or £100 million per week, or £14 million a day. (20). Around 36 pence per day per person.
- The 0.3% is really important – take a look at the pie chart. It is a tiny slither of the total spending in the UK, which if saved, would make no significant difference to the spending on public services, like the NHS or Education.
- The amount the UK economy benefits from investments from EU countries is £66 million a day. (Source: Office of National Statistics).
- If we leave and save that £5.7 billion a year we pay to the EU, independent economic experts believe the economic damage to the UK will more than outweigh the savings made. It is hard to predict exactly what will happen and when (might take a couple of years to feel the effects), but independent experts predict the damage to the UK to be between £20 billion to £40 billion (20). The same report predicts that the deficit which is expected to be cleared by 2019/20, will not be cleared if Brexit happens.
- Yes we are net contributors to the EU, so we get back (directly) less than we give, but isn’t it good to help poorer countries, if it leads to raising standards across Europe and avoiding wars, which the EU has avoided in Europe since the Second World War?
- Some claim we will continue to be able to access the single market in Europe if we leave, however Germany’s finance minister has made it quite clear this won’t be the case (21). Do we really want to risk rocking the boat here?

Line Number 3: “Britain no longer feels like Britain, we’re surrounded by foreigners!!! We have a massive immigration problem!!”

The fact that people are confusing the referendum with immigration rattles me the most! A few things to bear in mind:

- The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (22). However you feel about the above statement, it has nothing to do with our EU membership.
- Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (23). Britain has a population of £64.6 million, the impact on our overall population just isn’t very large!
- EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age (“economic migrants” – who have come to Britain to work) than the general population (24).
- Tax payments by EU migrants far outweigh welfare paid to EU migrants . They make a net contribution to the UK of £20 billion a year (25)
- Many UK citizens choose to become immigrants in other countries; Spain, Australia, America, China, Germany, to name but a few. We like to call ourselves “ex-pats” but in fact, we are immigrants enjoying another country’s culture, it’s public services, it’s weather! We don’t see this as a problem, we see it as exciting, yet when others wish to come here, so many see it as a problem, which saddens me.

It is true than no-one knows exactly what will happen if we leave the EU, so again, I turn to the experts here….

These are the likely effects on us all if we leave the EU:

- The pound will devalue due to uncertainty about the UK’s economic future. It’s already happening around fears of Brexit (26). Since the UK imports most of its good (you may have noticed we don’t “make” or manufacture as much in this country as we used to (!), a normal basket of goods will simply cost you more, because the Pound won’t buy as much. It would also become more expensive to take holidays abroad.
- Falling currency leads to higher inflation, again, normal basket of goods will cost more (26).
- Panic selling of the weakening Pound may force the Bank of England to raise interest rates, so your mortgage payments will go up (26).
- Unemployment will rise: a study commissioned by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) has warned that leaving the EU could cost the British economy 950,000 jobs (27).
- If you own a property in Europe, you will lose the tax perks of being an EU Citizen. France, for example, is notoriously tough on non-EU citizens, imposing a capital-gains tax of 49%, made up of its “impôt sur les plus values” and an added social charge. This compares to EU Citizens, who pay 19% on gains from renting or selling properties in France (28).

The question is, are you willing to risk all of the above happening? Are you willing to ignore all of those listed above in the Remain list?

I will finish on one of the quotes of the founding fathers of the EU, Sir Winston Churchill, addressing the Congress of Europe in 1948:

“A high and a solemn responsibility rests upon us here ... If we allow ourselves to be rent and disordered by pettiness and small disputes, if we fail in clarity of view or courage in action, a priceless occasion may be cast away for ever. But if we all pull together and pool the luck and the comradeship - and we shall need all the comradeship and not a little luck … then all the little children who are now growing up in this tormented world may find themselves not the victors nor the vanquished in the fleeting triumphs of one country over another in the bloody turmoil of … war, but the heirs of all the treasures of the past and the masters of all the science, the abundance and the glories of the future.”

And - against all the odds, we did it, we achieved Churchill’s vision for Europe.

Those “little children” are now retired – the first generation in a thousand years to grow up without the horror of war in Europe, enjoying a standard of living unimaginable in 1948.

All the cities, art, history, people, food and culture of this wonderful continent are open to us whenever we want to visit, to live or to work.

Hundreds of millions of European people who until only a few decades ago were ruled by dictators or communists now enjoy democracy, human rights, the rule of law and the abundance of the free market.

I think that’s worth 36 pence a day.

Let’s not live in isolation. Let’s not cut ties with Europe. Let’s drive reform from within. We are stronger together!

Thanks.

Sources:

(1) http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...isolationists; Tony Blair http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...ndum-36408239; John Major http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...vide-West.html
(2) Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) http://labourlist.org/2016/04/europe...ech-on-the-eu/
(3) Tim Farron (Lib Dem) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...im-Farron.html Caroline Lucas (Green) http://europe.newsweek.com/caroline-...erendum-425066 Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ean-Union.html
(4) Barack Obama http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ritain-even-gr
(5) Hillary Clinton http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...uld-stay-in-eu
(6) Angela Merkel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...ndum-36436726;
(7) https://www.theguardian.com/science/...pells-disaster ; http://www.nature.com/news/scientist...e-poll-1.19636
(8) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a6883561.html
(9) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-oppose-brexit
(10) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...say-historians
(11) http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0V517D
(12) http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-29/a...he-uk-economy/
(13) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...brexit-farming
(14) https://www.theguardian.com/business...xit-fears-bite
(15) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36353145
(16) https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-an...taying-in-eu-0
(17) http://www.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKCN0YV1QL
(18) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36534172
(19) http://johnmccormick.eu/2014/05/thre...uropean-union/
(20) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/public...comms/r116.pdf
(21) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-schauble-says
(22) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/stat.../#create-graph
(23) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
(24) http://www.economist.com/news/britai...s-ever-done-us
(25) https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...20bn-ucl-study
(26) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ened-by-brexit
(27) http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-coul...-study-1550666
(28) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...iday-home.html

[Troublawesome]

Absolutely amazing, brilliant! Well done!

[jacek]

Pie-chart for the above post.

[curley]

	Quote:	jacek
	This is Lisa Maxwell's post that sums it up pretty well ... Remain: Former British Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major (1 – see Sources below) The Labour party (2) Every other major UK political party leader including Nicola Sturgeon (3) Barack Obama (4) Hillary Clinton (5) Angela Merkel (6) Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (7) Sir Richard Branson (8) 40 religious leaders (9) 300 leading historians (10) The Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (11) 88% of economists (12) The National Farmers Union (13) The Bank of England (14) The Chief Executive of NHS England (15) The Royal College of Midwives (16) Multiple businesses including Ford Motor Company (17) and Rolls Royce (18) Leave: The Sun Newspaper The BNP The UKIP Party Nigel Farage Boris Johnson Michael Gove Donald Trump What has become majorly apparent to me, has been the overwhelming consensus among leaders and experts of all kinds that Britain is stronger in Europe. Just look at that list. Look at it! .

Interesting, all the "ins" have a source, the outs don't.
The in list is much longer than the out list, there could be Sir Michael Caine, James Dyson, the spectator .......
The farmers are listed on the in-list, the fishermen are not mentioned on the out-list
Rolls-Royce car belongs to Volkswagen, airplane-engines are built by/together with BMW ..... wonder why they wanna stay in?

Is "The Royal College of Midwives" a political reference in Britain or just a list-filler? (that's a genuine question)

	Quote:	jacek
	Maxwell: Hundreds of millions of European people who until only a few decades ago were ruled by dictators or communists now enjoy democracy, human rights, the rule of law and the abundance of the free market.

Riiiiight.

So Lisa Maxwell (had to look her up, apparantly she's an actress) has an opinion. That is definitely a good thing as people with no opinion are a drag. She did a lot of research - on the in-side. Yet it looked so familiar ..... as if done before by others ..... the midwifes were new to me though.

quote L. Maxwell: Please share if you found this useful! /quote
Not really, was it?

[Medea Fleecestealer]

As usual someone pro-Remain has left out a few details. The following are just some of the people backing Leave:


On 13 March 2016 Vote Leave announced the Vote Leave Campaign Committee, the public facing governing body that meets weekly to set the campaign strategy for Vote Leave.[31] This coincided with the announcement of Labour MP Gisela Stuart as the new Chair of Vote Leave (replacing Lord Lawson) along with Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove as Co-Conveners of the Committee.[32] The Vote Leave Campaign Committee is

• Michael Gove (Co-Convener), Conservative MP for Surrey Heath, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice
• Gisela Stuart (Co-Convener), Labour MP for Birmingham Edgbaston
• Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive)
• Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director), former government adviser[33]
• Steve Baker, Conservative MP for High Wycombe
• Douglas Carswell, UKIP MP for Clacton
• Ian Davidson, former Labour MP for Glasgow South West
• Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party MP for Belfast North, Deputy Leader of the DUP
• Iain Duncan Smith, Conservative MP for Chingford and Woodford Green
• Frank Field, Labour MP for Birkenhead, former Minister of Welfare Reform
• Lord Forsyth, former Conservative MP for Stirling and Secretary of State for Scotland
• Liam Fox, Conservative MP for North Somerset, former Secretary of State for Defence
• Chris Grayling, Conservative MP for Epsom and Ewell, Leader of the House of Commons
• Daniel Hannan, Conservative MEP for South East England
• Boris Johnson, Conservative MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, former Mayor of London
• Paul Keetch, former Liberal Democrat MP for Hereford
• Lord Lawson, former Conservative MP for Blaby and Chancellor of the Exchequer
• Andrea Leadsom, Conservative MP for South Northamptonshire, Minister of State at the Department of Energy and Climate Change
• John Longworth, former Director-General of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC). Longworth was suspended from his role at the BCC following his public comments in support of Brexit on 3 March.[34][35]

• Lord Owen, former Labour and SDP MP for Plymouth Devonport and Foreign Secretary
• Priti Patel, Conservative MP for Witham, Minister of State for Employment
• Dominic Raab, Conservative MP for Esher and Walton, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Justice
• Graham Stringer, Labour MP for Blackley and Broughton
• Theresa Villiers, Conservative MP for Chipping Barnet, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
• John Whittingdale, Conservative MP for Maldon, Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport

Vote Leave Board


The Vote Leave board is legally responsible for the campaign.[31]

• Gisela Stuart (Chairman), Labour MP for Birmingham Edgbaston
• John Mills (Deputy Chairman), founder and Chairman, JML
• Arabella Arkwright
• Martin Bellamy, CEO, Salamanca Group
• Peter Cruddas, founder, CMC Markets
• Suzanne Evans, UKIP spokeswoman
• Lord Forsyth, former Conservative MP for Stirling and Secretary of State for Scotland
• Alan Halsall, former Chairman, Silver Cross
• Daniel Hodson, former Chief Executive, LIFFE
• Bernard Jenkin, Conservative MP for Harwich and North Essex
• Jon Moynihan, former Executive Chairman, PA Consulting Group[5]
• Graham Stringer, Labour MP for Blackley and Broughton
• Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Conservative MP for Berwick-upon-Tweed
• Stuart Wheeler, founder, IG Index
• Victoria Woodcock (company secretary)

Supporters of Vote Leave


See also: Endorsements in the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016

• Sir Ian Botham, former cricketer
• Neville Baxter, Director, RH Development
• John Caudwell, entrepreneur and philanthropist
• Joe Foster, Founder, Reebok
• Michael Freeman, Co-Founder, Argent Group
• Christopher Foyle, Chairman, Foyles & Noved Investment Group
• Oliver Hemsley, CEO, Numis Securities
• Robert Hiscox, Honorary President, Hiscox Insurance
• Alexander Hoare, Managing Partner, C. Hoare & Co
• John Hoerner, former Chief Executive of Central European Clothing, Tesco
• Luke Johnson, Chairman, Patisserie Valerie
• Stanley Kalms, Baron Kalms, co-founder of Business for Sterling
• Brian Kingham, Founder, Reliance Security Group
• Crispin Odey, Founding Partner, Odey Asset Management[5]
• Andrew Roberts, historian

Members of Parliament supporting the organisation include UKIP MP Douglas Carswell, Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins, Conservative MPs Steve Baker, Bernard Jenkin and Owen Paterson, and former Ulster Unionist Party leader Lord Trimble.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_L..._of_Vote_Leave

Oh look, my list is longer than Lisa's. And you can also add to the above list:

EasyJet
BAE Systems
Shell
David Ross - founder of Carphone Warehouse
Sir Rocco Forte - hotelier
Roger Bootle - economist
Tim Martin - Wetherspoons founder and chairman
Crispin Odey - hedge fund manager
Norman Lamont - former Chancellor of the Exchequer

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-of-vote-leave

[baboon]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Long list mainly comprising MPs

Well as you want to be sure to include everyone perhaps you should make it clear that while 151 MPs support Brexit (presumably 150 now), 464 support remain.

Of the cabinet 6 support leave, 24 remain.

Business is of course overwhelmingly remain, only a relative handful support Brexit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-35616946

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	curley
	Is "The Royal College of Midwives" a political reference in Britain or just a list-filler? (that's a genuine question)

Genuine answer, it's a very significant reference.

There's a massive shortfall of qualified midwives in the UK, so many are recruited from abroad. This has been the case for as long as I can remember. One of my housemates when I was 18, was an Irish midwife who was recruited by the NHS because they had a shortfall back then in 1983.

The UK loses a lot of midwives to Australia because over there, they can work part-time hours for similar pay to what they get for full-time in the UK, and because of the Australian points system, midwives are virtually guaranteed acceptance.

	Quote:	curley
	So Lisa Maxwell (had to look her up, apparantly she's an actress) has an opinion. That is definitely a good thing as people with no opinion are a drag. She did a lot of research - on the in-side. Yet it looked so familiar ..... as if done before by others ..... the midwifes were new to me though.

I don't like her personally. Never have done. I believe her original post was before Dyson announced his support for the Leave campaign.