The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	k_and_e
	the problem of your statement is that this counts for any voting. you can replace lies by promises and misinformation by propaganda, and have a regular political campaign.

Yes it does and probably goes on, but in the case of the UK, a similar shady election campaign by an MP or even a general election, the effect is largely temporary. Get a shit government who promised the earth then got caught with their pants down, you can vote them out again at the next GE.

With the EU referendum the damage of the smoke, mirrors and unicorn campaigning is irreparable and permanent unless the UK decides somewhere down the line that they want to rejoin the EU.

Have to say, though, the scale of breath-taking deception of the EU referendum campaign was unprecedented in modern history. The level of disdain shown to the population, assuming they were all dumb sheep spoke volumes about those running the respective campaigns, and is probably mainly responsible for the level of reaction we are seeing since the result.

The government is reaping what was sown.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Have to say, though, the scale of breath-taking deception of the EU referendum campaign was unprecedented in modern history. The level of disdain shown to the population, assuming they were all dumb sheep spoke volumes about those running the respective campaigns, and is probably mainly responsible for the level of reaction we are seeing since the result.

Just to add to that, I believe the public were played to great effect. Time and again I heard quite a number of traditional Labour voters say that they were voting leave to stick two fingers up at Cameron over austerity cut backs, but what they actually voted for was a Tory led Brexit.

For me, the key word throughout the campaigns was 'elite'. Whether it be EU elite or Remain elitists, it's devisive and just enough to sway many of the less politically aware people into voting against any perceived elites. It's the whole... "So they think they're better than me eh? Well I'll show them!" attitude that has entered the political arena in a way I've never seen before, and it's incredibly destructive.

	Quote:
	Yes it does and probably goes on, but in the case of the UK, a similar shady election campaign by an MP or even a general election, the effect is largely temporary. Get a shit government who promised the earth then got caught with their pants down, you can vote them out again at the next GE. With the EU referendum the damage of the smoke, mirrors and unicorn campaigning is irreparable and permanent unless the UK decides somewhere down the line that they want to rejoin the EU. Have to say, though, the scale of breath-taking deception of the EU referendum campaign was unprecedented in modern history. The level of disdain shown to the population, assuming they were all dumb sheep spoke volumes about those running the respective campaigns, and is probably mainly responsible for the level of reaction we are seeing since the result. The government is reaping what was sown.

I don't agree. The only realistic choice you make is if you want to below to the EU or not. Nobody can estimate the long-term pros and cons.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Just to add to that, I believe the public were played to great effect. Time and again I heard quite a number of traditional Labour voters say that they were voting leave to stick two fingers up at Cameron over austerity cut backs, but what they actually voted for was a Tory led Brexit. For me, the key word throughout the campaigns was 'elite'. Whether it be EU elite or Remain elitists, it's devisive and just enough to sway many of the less politically aware people into voting against any perceived elites. It's the whole... "So they think they're better than me eh? Well I'll show them!" attitude that has entered the political arena in a way I've never seen before, and it's incredibly destructive.

Whilst you may believe the general public is stupid & gullible, they won't thank you for telling them they were foolish. Everybody's vote is of equal weight you need to remember that.

[bowlie]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Whilst you may believe the general public is stupid & gullible, they won't thank you for telling them they were foolish. Everybody's vote is of equal weight you need to remember that.

Well except for those British Citizens non-resident for 15 years or more, or EU nationals paying taxes and resident in the UK. Australia, Canadian, Cypriot, etc residents got an ‘equal vote’ nut the above didn’t.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I don't agree. The only realistic choice you make is if you want to belong to the EU or not. Nobody can estimate the long-term pros and cons.

The campaign leaders lead everyone to believe they knew all the long-term implications, though.

Agree that the IN / OUT vote was stupid and thoughtless, though, as is being proved by the shit-show going on now.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Whilst you may believe the general public is stupid & gullible, they won't thank you for telling them they were foolish. Everybody's vote is of equal weight you need to remember that.

It's a pity the government didn't share your respect for the voting public at the time of the referendum.

Certain key individuals at the top of the campaigning gave away the thinly veiled contempt they held for voters as soon as they launched their ridiculous promises and their alarmist dog-whistle guff.

It's pointless feigning the moral high-ground now anyway. Integrity and humility were ingredients needed just over two years ago. Much too late now.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Well except for those British Citizens non-resident for 15 years or more, or EU nationals paying taxes and resident in the UK. Australia, Canadian, Cypriot, etc residents got an ‘equal vote’ nut the above didn’t.

I could not vote either ! I lived in Switzerland for a month short of 20 years & could not vote, so it's nothing unique to the UK.

EU nationals resident in the UK can vote in local elections but not general elections.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I don't agree. The only realistic choice you make is if you want to below to the EU or not. Nobody can estimate the long-term pros and cons.

Don't be ridiculous for heavens sake!

- All you have to do is read A50 to know that every single agreement you have with the EU will be terminated on exit.

- Look at the average time it takes to get a trade deal agreed at the WTO and you know it will not happen in less than a couple of years

- It does not take much figure out that if 90% of your exports are depending on trade deals that you are about to walk a way from, you'll have issues.

- It does not take a genius to realise that no one is going to disadvantage themselves in negotiations so you get a good deal, not the EU, not the USA nor anyone else.

And that is just the obvious stuff.

This idea that nobody can estimate so we should just continue is total BS. We can make a very good prediction that it will not be good and at the very least BREXIT needed a plan. Rather than just hopping of the cliff and see what happens.

More than 70 business leaders have signed a letter to the Sunday Times calling for a public vote on the UK's Brexit deal.

Before anyone pops a vein, they're not calling for a "second referendum" they are calling for a vote on the deal.

	Quote:
	More than 70 business leaders have signed a letter to the Sunday Times calling for a public vote on the UK's Brexit deal. Before anyone pops a vein, they're not calling for a "second referendum" they are calling for a vote on the deal.

Good thing that businesses don’t get referendums. People do.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Good thing that businesses don’t get referendums. People do.

Your comment makes no sense.

Since when did ‘business leaders’ (as I wrote and as appeared in the article) not count as people? And why do you think they shouldn’t vote in referendums?

You just altered it to ‘businesses’ to suit your point.

	Quote:
	Your comment makes no sense. Since when did ‘business leaders’ (as I wrote and as appeared in the article) not count as people? And why do you think they shouldn’t vote in referendums? You just altered it to ‘businesses’ to suit your point.

Nope, one person, one vote. Or do you believe that “business leaders” should get more?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I don't agree. The only realistic choice you make is if you want to below to the EU or not. Nobody can estimate the long-term pros and cons.

Yes the can and they do, and apparently all these findings seem to converge to the same conclusion: getting out of EU is a stupid, unrealistic thing to do. Does Netherlands think to repeat the historical epic? I'd really love to. Because it would be an epic fail, pun intended. I'd laugh my butt off hysterically when other countries that took advantages of the common market enormously would gain that independence now! Go on dears, Europe was too kind with you. And one gets too many good things in life, one gets bored!
It's funny. Yesterday I was to an event where EU was brought up into discussion. You can't believe how much support EU still has among so many people - mainly Italians and Germans there, but still....I was amazed. What this forum and the media tries to inoculate in people's minds is so dishonest.

	Quote:
	The question people should be asking themselves is why is a result being accepted which was the product of such a flawed campaign supported almost fully by lies and misinformation? I guess there's a decent whack of voters that now object to having been taken for mugs, but it depends where your standards are set I guess.

“Lies and misinformation”

What, like this?

The Great Brexit Banker Exodus That Wasn’t

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Nope, one person, one vote. Or do you believe that “business leaders” should get more?

Where did I say that?

I posted a link to an article that referred to a letter from business leaders (for clarity: each one a person and each one with a vote) stating reasons to call for a further vote on the final Brexit deal.

You clearly misunderstood and responded that businesses can’t vote in referendums, which nobody said anywhere

You then bizarrely start rattling on that I somehow think business people should get more than one vote.

At least stick to what I say in a post rather than inventing stuff. Although that seems to be the Brexit way, right

	Quote:	Loz1983
	“Lies and misinformation” What, like this? The Great Brexit Banker Exodus That Wasn’t

I like the nonchalant disclaimer in the article “...at least for now.”

It’s not exactly a lie, is it?

There were much juicier links to some of the more bare-faced porkies which would have illustrated your point far better.

	Quote:
	Where did I say that? I posted a link to an article that referred to a letter from business leaders (for clarity: each one a person and each one with a vote) stating reasons to call for a further vote on the final Brexit deal. You clearly misunderstood and responded that businesses can’t vote in referendums, which nobody said anywhere You then bizarrely start rattling on that I somehow think business people should get more than one vote. At least stick to what I say in a post rather than inventing stuff. Although that seems to be the Brexit way, right

From the original link that you posted, the message is clear. “Business leaders” write letters like this because they presume that their opinion counts for more than ordinary people.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	From the original link that you posted, the message is clear. “Business leaders” write letters like this because they presume that their opinion counts for more than ordinary people.

So you are saying opinion = vote, or what?

Opinion is what you make of it.

[lewton]

	Quote:
	More than 70 business leaders have signed a letter to the Sunday Times calling for a public vote on the UK's Brexit deal. Before anyone pops a vein, they're not calling for a "second referendum" they are calling for a vote on the deal.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	At least stick to what I say in a post rather than inventing stuff. Although that seems to be the Brexit way, right

It appears to be a common affliction with Brexiteers...

What I wrote...

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Just to add to that, I believe the public were played to great effect.... ...it's devisive and just enough to sway many of the less politically aware people into voting against any perceived elites.

How FMF interpreted it...

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Whilst you may believe the general public is stupid & gullible, they won't thank you for telling them they were foolish.