The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Yes the can and they do, and apparently all these findings seem to converge to the same conclusion: getting out of EU is a stupid, unrealistic thing to do. Does Netherlands think to repeat the historical epic? I'd really love to. Because it would be an epic fail, pun intended. I'd laugh my butt off hysterically when other countries that took advantages of the common market enormously would gain that independence now! Go on dears, Europe was too kind with you. And one gets too many good things in life, one gets bored! It's funny. Yesterday I was to an event where EU was brought up into discussion. You can't believe how much support EU still has among so many people - mainly Italians and Germans there, but still....I was amazed. What this forum and the media tries to inoculate in people's minds is so dishonest.

You should compare the UK situation to the Netherlands. In the Netherlands nobody wants to leave the EU. Still, if there would be a voting and there would be a majority for a Nexit, then so be it.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	You should compare the UK situation to the Netherlands. In the Netherlands nobody wants to leave the EU.

Back in 2015/2016, it was a toss up who would leave first, the UK or the Netherlands. If anyone was going to leave, I sincerely wanted it to be the Dutch so that everyone could learn from their mistakes along the way.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ign-referendum

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Back in 2015/2016, it was a toss up who would leave first, the UK or the Netherlands. If anyone was going to leave, I sincerely wanted it to be the Dutch so that everyone could learn from their mistakes along the way. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ign-referendum

that was not about the Netherlands leaving the EU. It was about Ukraine (kind of) entering the EU.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	that was not about the Netherlands leaving the EU. It was about Ukraine (kind of) entering the EU.

You know full well that's not all it was about. You know full well that Wilders wanted the Netherlands to leave the EU. You will also know full well that the Netherlandscurrent stance on advisory referendums.

	Quote:
	Why the Netherlands is rejecting referendums Dutch parliament votes to abolish advisory polls over fears they undermine democracy From the moment that David Cameron, the former UK prime minister, called a referendum on Britain’s EU membership, continental European political leaders had misgivings. In Denmark, France, Ireland and the Netherlands, governments knew from bruising experience that EU-related referendums could deliver results opposite to those planned. Now the Netherlands wants to put the referendum genie back in its bottle. To the extent that is constitutionally possible, the ruling Dutch centre-right coalition is clamping down on referendums. By 76 votes to 69, parliament’s lower house last week approved a bill that abolishes advisory referendums permitted under a 2015 law.

https://www.ft.com/content/06166110-...a-4574d7dabfb6

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You know full well that's not all it was about. You know full well that Wilders wanted the Netherlands to leave the EU. You will also know full well that the Netherlandscurrent stance on advisory referendums. https://www.ft.com/content/06166110-...a-4574d7dabfb6

Wilders represents only one party.

And for advisory referendums: you have to accept them as a government, no matter how unwanted the outcome is for the ruling government. I think the main problem with the EU is that nobody wants to be governed by anonymous burocratics in another country. Instead of ignoring this, the EU should go back to its roots.

[marton]

Do not know whether to laugh or cry-

	Quote:
	Arron Banks would now vote to Remain because of Government's 'disgraceful' handling of Brexit

Source

If only the rest of the country would be allowed a vote to change their minds.

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Wilders represents only one party. And for advisory referendums: you have to accept them as a government, no matter how unwanted the outcome is for the ruling government. I think the main problem with the EU is that nobody wants to be governed by anonymous burocratics bureaucrats in another country. Instead of ignoring this, the EU should go back to its roots.

"nobody wants to be governed by anonymous bureaucrats in another country." but that is not how the EU works?

The EU’s standard decision-making procedure is known as 'Ordinary Legislative Procedure’.
This means that the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation together with the Council (the governments of the 28 EU countries).

[bowlie]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I could not vote either ! I lived in Switzerland for a month short of 20 years & could not vote, so it's nothing unique to the UK. EU nationals resident in the UK can vote in local elections but not general elections.

Some EU nationals resident in the UK, the Irish, the Cypriots, the Maltese, etc. did. As Canadians, Belizians, Australian, Kiwis etc got to vote but not the French, the Germans, nor the Polish residents regardless of their tenure. Nor did non-resident British Citizens. How can that be fair?

What would have been fair is if all British Residents over a certain age been given the vote. Or all British citizens.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Nor did non-resident British Citizens. How can that be fair?

I'll add another scenario into the mix. My OH is dual EU/Commonwealth. He was sent a polling card for the 2015 GE but refused permission to vote at the polling station because the DWP had only read the EU nationality on the first line of their records, and not the Commonwealth nationality. I called the Windsor officials a few hours before voting ended and was told they'd been swamped with calls all day from other people experiencing the same issue.

And then there's these relating to the EU Referendum...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...als-by-mistake

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7125711.html

I've repeatedly said that the whole voting system for the EU Referendim was a total feck up.

[bowlie]

	Quote:
	i've repeatedly said that the whole voting system for the eu referendim was a total feck up.

+1

and another...

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	"nobody wants to be governed by anonymous bureaucrats in another country." but that is not how the EU works? The EU’s standard decision-making procedure is known as 'Ordinary Legislative Procedure’. This means that the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation together with the Council (the governments of the 28 EU countries).

It's amazing how little the population knows about how EU works and what is regulated by EU and what not and how easy it's to manipulate people. Local politicians also cowardly blaming all the evils on EU and not on their incompetence...while of course having another discourse in the European Parliament hehe...


But whose fault is that? I don't think EU has payed too much attention to making clear what kind of rights EU citizens have or how these institutions function....it's a disaster actually, in general.

[fatmanfilms]

I know Parliaments vote in 1972 was a long time ago, the European Communities Bill which only scraped through by eight votes after the Heath Government had misrepresented the intentions of the Treaty of Rome and misled Parliament into believing that joining the EEC would not result in any loss of British Sovereignty.

Misrepresentation is nothing new, clearly without such misrepresentation Britain would have never joined in the first place.

[marton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	It's amazing how little the population knows about how EU works and what is regulated by EU and what not and how easy it's to manipulate people. Local politicians also cowardly blaming all the evils on EU and not on their incompetence...while of course having another discourse in the European Parliament hehe... But whose fault is that? I don't think EU has payed too much attention to making clear what kind of rights EU citizens have or how these institutions function....it's a disaster actually, in general.

Probably one of the biggest UK failures was not taking the European Parliament seriously and so not ensuring a proper representation by the major parties.

Out of 71 UK MEPs, 20 Labour, 18 Tory, 18 UKIP and then ones and twos from minor parties

[John William]

	Quote:	marton
	Probably one of the biggest UK failures was not taking the European Parliament seriously and so not ensuring a proper representation by the major parties. Out of 71 UK MEPs, 20 Labour, 18 Tory, 18 UKIP and then ones and twos from minor parties

What !! and no mention of the Scottish nationalist MEP's, from north of the border ?

Who can forget Alyn Smith's epic, Braveheart speech before the European Parliament,
following the result of the British Referendum on the EU.

Alyn Smith MEP - Braveheart speech

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Because there is no way to challenge it apart from voting at the next general election and that is too late. It is a huge weakness in Parliament of Westminster style democracies - parliament is sovereign and there is no way for a citizen to challenge an act of parliament as being unconstitutional. Even if there was another referendum there is no way to require the likes of the DUP to carry it out.

Being sovereign means taking one's own decision without obeying any entity's orders but that doesn't mean one doesn't have to follow rules, the constitution for example.

That, however, doesn't mean Brexit can't be challenged. As you should know already, Brexit has been challenged before the supreme court multiple times.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Being sovereign means taking one's own decision without obeying any entity's orders but that doesn't mean one doesn't have to follow rules, the constitution for example. That, however, doesn't mean Brexit can't be challenged. As you should know already, Brexit has been challenged before the supreme court multiple times.

First of all try making a list of all the times that the Supreme Court or the Law Lords before them, have over turned an act of parliament as being unconstitutional. You will not find a single case because the parliament is sovereign and indeed some of the Law Lords were of the opinion that an act of parliament can be considered to form part of the so called unwritten constitution.

Second the BREXIT act was no challenged in the courts, the bill had not even been drafted at that stage. What was challenged in the courts was the process of activating A50 and Mays attempt to circumvent the parliamentary process to do so. And more recently if A50 can be withdrawn by parliament at all.

Brexit is enshrined in UK law and there is no way to have it nullified other than parliament withdrawing it. The Supreme Court will not entertain a case challenging the sovereignty of parliament.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Foreign nationals will be allowed to join the Armed Forces without having ever lived in Britain, ministers will announce on Monday, in a major move to address a deepening recruitment crisis.

Source

Realpolitik in action!
The Army and Air force (but not the Navy) have to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen, wonder how that will work? Will the recruits be given a fast path to citizenship?

Wow mercenaries - the Swiss will be top of the list again, then.

[bowlie]

I believe it is 'foreign' nationals of Commonwealth countries. Q. E. II is the head of the Commonwealth and 16 Commonwealth countries count QE 11 as their monarch.

This, of course, will change if/when Chuck becomes the monarch.