The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	....yesterday, no resignations...

Looks like I spoke too soon: Shailesh Vara gone.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Well going on the performance of the BREXIT MPs so far I'd say there is at least a 50/50 chance. Oh they do a lot of shouting, but not one of them so far has actually stood up and taken responsibility for the decision. No actually challenge to May's leadership, no insistence on a vote in cabinet yesterday, no resignations... Would not be at all surprised if some of them find excuses not to be in the chamber when the vote is called.

Give it time, I think this withdrawal agreement will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It took a day or two after the Chequers meeting for the resignations to come. The rumours are rife that enough letters have been sent into Conservative party HQ for a vote of no confidence in the PM. This all before it gets to the house for a vote.

Keir Starmer has said Labour will vote against it, the DUP have said they'll vote against it. May simply doesn't have the numbers to get this though, an absolute non starter.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	bowlie
	With the agreement of the British electorate.

Thats what they voted for so yes.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Thats what they voted for so yes.

Nope. They voted simply to leave. There was no option to say under what terms and conditions.

Look at it like someone offering to make you a cup of coffee but you get no say on whether it's hot or cold, with milk or with sugar, in a mug, in a cup, whether it's free or costs you an arm and a leg. You just said you'd take the coffee, right?

The fatal flaw in the referendum is now starkly clear.

Dominic Raab gone.

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/stat...92019449098241

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Nope. They voted simply to leave. There was no option to say under what terms and conditions. Look at it like someone offering to make you a cup of coffee but you get no say on whether it's hot or cold, with milk or with sugar, in a mug, in a cup, whether it's free or costs you an arm and a leg. You just said you'd take the coffee, right? The fatal flaw in the referendum is now starkly clear.

How come the intelligent remainers could not figure it out & explain to the ignorant leavers?

This deal is dead, I wouldn't be surprised if Theresa May resigns before she's pushed.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	How come the intelligent remainers could not figure it out & explain to the ignorant leavers?

Why would they need to? It was there in black and white on the ballot paper. It was obvious to anyone with an ounce of commonsense that simply voting IN or OUT would leave the gate wide open for a leave vote to be interpreted in any way the government and/or EU saw fit.

Anyway, anything Remainers said was poo-poohed as "scare mongering".

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	Nope. They voted simply to leave. There was no option to say under what terms and conditions. Look at it like someone offering to make you a cup of coffee but you get no say on whether it's hot or cold, with milk or with sugar, in a mug, in a cup, whether it's free or costs you an arm and a leg. You just said you'd take the coffee, right? The fatal flaw in the referendum is now starkly clear.

But how could you have a say about the terms and conditions at the time of voting? This is the outcome of a negotiation process.



And if you would define terms and conditions as a kind of requirement at the time of voting, you would never be able to negotiate that deal as the preferred outcome would always be something much more favorable for one party than the other.


The best way to go is probably have no deal at all, accept a potential chaos for a while and take it up from there. Or you stay in the EU and accept that you will be the barking dog that doesn't bite.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	But how could you have a say about the terms and conditions at the time of voting? This is the outcome of a negotiation process.

Precisely. But Brexiters don't seem to accept that they are powerless in the terms of the withdrawal. They voted for an in or out and they got an "out". If they wanted a more considered withdrawal without risk of it going in a direction they didn't intend, they should have voted against it.

In principle, I am not wholly against leaving the EU but this referendum was NOT the way to go about it.

It was a vanity project of Cameron to see off UKIP but it backfired because he didn't think it through.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The best way to go is probably have no deal at all, accept a potential chaos for a while and take it up from there. Or you stay in the EU and accept that you will be the barking dog that doesn't bite.

Part of me agrees with you in a kind of "close your eyes and hold your breath" and hope for the best. At least the Brexiters would quit bleating for 5 minutes.

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	But how could you have a say about the terms and conditions at the time of voting? This is the outcome of a negotiation process. And if you would define terms and conditions as a kind of requirement at the time of voting, you would never be able to negotiate that deal as the preferred outcome would always be something much more favorable for one party than the other. The best way to go is probably have no deal at all, accept a potential chaos for a while and take it up from there. Or you stay in the EU and accept that you will be the barking dog that doesn't bite.

Well there was an official Leave Party and normally parties publish a manifesto describing what they will do when they win; this they did not do! Probably because despite being the official Leave Party they knew they would have no control over the terms of Brexit.

Nevertheless they could have provided some sort of outline or overview plan.
Instead they just provided a dubious list of the benefits resulting from leaving.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	But how could you have a say about the terms and conditions at the time of voting? This is the outcome of a negotiation process. And if you would define terms and conditions as a kind of requirement at the time of voting, you would never be able to negotiate that deal as the preferred outcome would always be something much more favorable for one party than the other. The best way to go is probably have no deal at all, accept a potential chaos for a while and take it up from there. Or you stay in the EU and accept that you will be the barking dog that doesn't bite.

Just as well the Leave campaign didn't intimate that doing an exit deal would be easy, that we had all the cards and that negotiating better deals with non-EU countries would be a piece of cake.

You conveniently miss the third option, which would have been to stay in the EU, actively engage in the democratic process there and try and improve things for everyone, rather sniping from the sidelines trying to bring in the institution down, when we should be one of the leading voices within. See for example old Nige moaning about the EU ruining the lives of British fishermen, when he was on that committee and attended something like 1 in 43 meetings of it.

And another one ... gone (Ester McVey)

StirB, that option is still very much on the table- perhaps more than ever. If a People's Vote happens, and I think it will be forced - that 3rd option will just have to be on the ballot.

Now if only Corbyn would go ... and make space for Starmer and others- ot at least come off his bl**dy fence!

Mrs May is not 'my kind of woman' - but she has more colliones than all of them- and as a diabetic, just do not know how she can keep going as she is. So yes, she has won my admiration, if not my vote.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	You conveniently miss the third option, which would have been to stay in the EU, actively engage in the democratic process there and try and improve things for everyone, rather sniping from the sidelines trying to bring in the institution down, when we should be one of the leading voices within. See for example old Nige moaning about the EU ruining the lives of British fishermen, when he was on that committee and attended something like 1 in 43 meetings of it.

i mentioned that option but UK will be the barking dog that will not be taken serious for a while.

	Quote:
	You conveniently miss the third option, which would have been to stay in the EU, actively engage in the democratic process there and try and improve things for everyone, rather sniping from the sidelines trying to bring in the institution down, when we should be one of the leading voices within. See for example old Nige moaning about the EU ruining the lives of British fishermen, when he was on that committee and attended something like 1 in 43 meetings of it.

Nige was (democratically elected) there for a reason: The majority of the UK public does not want to be part of a Federal Europe, and this was the reason people voted to leave.

The UK has tried reform from within and each and every time were told to go whistle. The only reform which ever gets accepted is that of deeper and closer integration. It's pure folly to imagine that this would ever change.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Nige was (democratically elected) there for a reason: The majority of the UK public does not want to be part of a Federal Europe, and this was the reason people voted to leave. The UK has tried reform from within and each and every time were told to go whistle. The only reform which ever gets accepted is that of deeper and closer integration. It's pure folly to imagine that this would ever change.

The majority of the UK public couldn't define to you what "federalised" means, so not buying that for a minute as the driving factor behind Brexit. What percentage of Leavers polled mentioned anything about "Federalisation" vs "immigration"? I'd bet more people mentioned bendy bananas than Federalisation!

Has the UK really tried reform, or has it always been one foot in, one foot out, hoping for the best? The UK has actually managed to get some decent concessions from the EU in the past, but I'm afraid we've had such a vocal Euro-sceptic wing for so long that we've never really given it a chance.

	Quote:
	The majority of the UK public couldn't define to you what "federalised" means, so not buying that for a minute as the driving factor behind Brexit. What percentage of Leavers polled mentioned anything about "Federalisation" vs "immigration"? I'd bet more people mentioned bendy bananas than Federalisation! Has the UK really tried reform, or has it always been one foot in, one foot out, hoping for the best? The UK has actually managed to get some decent concessions from the EU in the past, but I'm afraid we've had such a vocal Euro-sceptic wing for so long that we've never really given it a chance.

That's the single positive to come out of this agreement is that it finally knocks this whole "immigration being the reason for Brexit" on the head. If there is one thing that this exit deal delivers on, it is control of the UK borders. Yet people are furious with it.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The rumours are rife that enough letters have been sent into Conservative party HQ for a vote of no confidence in the PM.

And then .... what? A different PM won't get you any better deal.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	And then .... what? A different PM won't get you any better deal.

Correct, too many mistakes have been made along the way for that. The only options are No-Deal (my preference) or Remain. Both preferable to what's on offer at the moment.

... an now Anne-Marie Trevelyan.