The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Rob]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	How come the intelligent remainers could not figure it out & explain to the ignorant leavers?

We did. The response was a screech of “PROJECT FEAR wibble wibble wibble”

So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it. That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	... yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.

Prove that.

Your first problem will be that the referendum vote was not counted by parliamentary constituencies, except for in NI. Once you've untangled that, my constituency, Windsor, heavily voted remain whilst the sitting MP was campaigning for leave. Add to that, our neighbour constituency, Maidenhead, also voted heavily to Remain, and it's MP is the PM who's attempting to enact the Leave vote.

There are times that I sincerely wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it. That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voters voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.

ftfy
Lying again?
Or just an honest mistake?

Anyway there was a general election last year where people voted in the Tory MPs of whom you are complaining so you have no grounds for "a mockery of representative democracy".

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it. That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.

Not really when every current indication is that a significant number have changed their minds since.

What you also refuse to acknowledge is that even of the 52% wanting Brexit, only about half wanted a hard Brexit. The rest (and yes, this has been polled) would prefer to remain rather than a hard Brexit.

Fun was that no-one ever bothered to explain to them was that a soft Brexit with free trade but no cost simply wasn't ever going to happen

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Correct, too many mistakes have been made along the way for that.

There never was one available, the UK wanted their government to square a circle.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Prove that. Your first problem will be that the referendum vote was not counted by parliamentary constituencies, except for in NI. Once you've untangled that, my constituency, Windsor, heavily voted remain whilst the sitting MP was campaigning for leave. Add to that, our neighbour constituency, Maidenhead, also voted heavily to Remain, and it's MP is the PM who's attempting to enact the Leave vote. There are times that I sincerely wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.

My pleasure:

Situation before 2017 election (source):



After 2017 election:
Parliament’s silent majority could thwart a hard Brexit

	Quote:
	Three-quarters of MPs voted to remain.

	Quote:	marton
	Anyway there was a general election last year where people voted in the Tory MPs of whom you are complaining so you have no grounds for "a mockery of representative democracy".

That's also the problem with party politics. I don't understand how any Tory Leaver could still vote for the party even if they pinched their nose at the moment, however if there was an election tomorrow they still would.

	Quote:	Rob
	We did. The response was a screech of “PROJECT FEAR wibble wibble wibble”

with experts constantly 'balanced', in the Press, TV and the BBC- by some 'flatearther' with some opposite opinion or other.

[Blueangel]

Contrasting news from Downing Street...

	Quote:
	Larry the Cat‏ @Number10cat"The Prime Minister offered me the position of Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. After careful consideration for three seconds, I have declined the offer”

https://twitter.com/Number10cat/stat...24031719403520

	Quote:
	Larry The Cat Resigns

https://uokhun.uk/2018/11/15/larry-the-cat-resigns/

	Quote:	Urs Max
	There never was one available, the UK wanted their government to square a circle.

We will never know now, however I doubt the situation would be the same now if the UK:

• hadn't triggered Art 50 before contingency planning was finished
• hadn't triggered Art 50 before having a coherent negotiation strategy and knowing precisely what the UK wanted
• had made adequate no deal preparations
• hadn't accepted the EU sequencing of negotiations
• hadn't accepted the Irish backstop

Life could be very interesting if someone created a Remain version of UKIP, largely conservative policies but pro EU and then stood against every Brexit Tory MO in a remain area.

Would be good for 50-odd seats.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it.

Not that incredible. Only someone who wants to end their political career will want the job.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers.

You forget that it was never meant to get this far. Even BoJo was a remainer until he saw it as his own vanity project and an opportunity to become PM.

[Blueangel]

You're missing the point Loz. In the referendum, the constiuency was Windoer & Maidenhead, but for parliamentary purposes, Windsor and Maidenhead have different MPs with very opposing views on the EU prior to the referendum. Wigan, my home town, is similarly affected as it has more than one MP for parliamentary purposes, but the constituency lines used for refendum covered more than one parliamentary constituency.

The source you gave clearly emphasises 'Estimated'. That's not empirical proof.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.

Hardly. The people elect representatives (who in theory are more clued up than them) to represent the interests of the people who elected them. That doesn't necessarily mean doing what the people want, but what the representative believes is in their interest.

Remaining, we can now see, is in the national interest as the people tasked with trying to negotiate a better set of terms have spectacularly failed.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	We will never know now, however I doubt the situation would be the same now if the UK: hadn't triggered Art 50 before contingency planning was finished hadn't triggered Art 50 before having a coherent negotiation strategy and knowing precisely what the UK wanted had made adequate no deal preparations hadn't accepted the EU sequencing of negotiations hadn't accepted the Irish backstop

If they had actually done points one to three and people were made aware of what it would really mean, they most likely would never have gotten to points 4 or 5.

And even if they did it would not have made a bit of a difference. Because the EU is rule based and will apply those rules exactly the same and any change to that would require treaty changes which is something they would never agreed to for the same of a thirty country and none to the BREXIT gang would accept the idea of the Danes, the French and the Irish voting to decide there future.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.

The usual old BS. The UK has a sovereign parliament, that is their democracy. If they are not happy with how it works, then perhaps that is where they should start talking about taking back control. Of course a written constitution, enforced by the Sovereign which would restrict parliament is the last thing either side wants.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You're missing the point Loz. In the referendum, the constiuency was Windoer & Maidenhead, but for parliamentary purposes, Windsor and Maidenhead have different MPs with very opposing views on the EU prior to the referendum. Wigan, my home town, is similarly affected as it has more than one MP for parliamentary purposes, but the constituency lines used for refendum covered more than one parliamentary constituency. The source you gave clearly emphasises 'Estimated'. That's not empirical proof.

You're talking about constituency lines, I'm talking about the entire number of MPs who voted Remain or Leave.

[John William]

Shock horror - Brexit the disaster movie continues over on BBC 24hr News with breaking news that:

Brexit Secretary - Dominic Raab has resigned saying he cannot in good conscience support, the draft Brexit Agreement.

[omtatsat]

This whole Brexit disaster shows the incompetence of British politicians on both sides. They always were incompetent but this has really brought the point home.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	The usual old BS. The UK has a sovereign parliament, that is their democracy. If they are not happy with how it works, then perhaps that is where they should start talking about taking back control. Of course a written constitution, enforced by the Sovereign which would restrict parliament is the last thing either side wants.

Just PR, an elected (smaller) upper house, smaller lower house and direct democracy will do nicely. We can ditch the monarchy and forget the written constitution.

	Quote:
	Hardly. The people elect representatives (who in theory are more clued up than them) to represent the interests of the people who elected them. That doesn't necessarily mean doing what the people want, but what the representative believes is in their interest. Remaining, we can now see, is in the national interest as the people tasked with trying to negotiate a better set of terms have spectacularly failed.

"National interest" has very different meanings for different people, which is why we have politics. Politicians that tend to do things which aren't what people want, but in what they believe are in their interests tend to find themselves out of a job. Which is why we're seeing a huge rise in the far right across Europe at the moment.