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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #14821  
Old 15.11.2018, 14:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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How come the intelligent remainers could not figure it out & explain to the ignorant leavers?
We did. The response was a screech of “PROJECT FEAR wibble wibble wibble”
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  #14822  
Old 15.11.2018, 14:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it. That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.
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  #14823  
Old 15.11.2018, 14:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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... yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.
Prove that.

Your first problem will be that the referendum vote was not counted by parliamentary constituencies, except for in NI. Once you've untangled that, my constituency, Windsor, heavily voted remain whilst the sitting MP was campaigning for leave. Add to that, our neighbour constituency, Maidenhead, also voted heavily to Remain, and it's MP is the PM who's attempting to enact the Leave vote.

There are times that I sincerely wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.
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  #14824  
Old 15.11.2018, 14:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it.
That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voters voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers.
Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.
ftfy
Lying again?
Or just an honest mistake?

Anyway there was a general election last year where people voted in the Tory MPs of whom you are complaining so you have no grounds for "a mockery of representative democracy".
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  #14825  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it. That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers. Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.
Not really when every current indication is that a significant number have changed their minds since.

What you also refuse to acknowledge is that even of the 52% wanting Brexit, only about half wanted a hard Brexit. The rest (and yes, this has been polled) would prefer to remain rather than a hard Brexit.

Fun was that no-one ever bothered to explain to them was that a soft Brexit with free trade but no cost simply wasn't ever going to happen
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  #14826  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Correct, too many mistakes have been made along the way for that.
There never was one available, the UK wanted their government to square a circle.
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  #14827  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Prove that.

Your first problem will be that the referendum vote was not counted by parliamentary constituencies, except for in NI. Once you've untangled that, my constituency, Windsor, heavily voted remain whilst the sitting MP was campaigning for leave. Add to that, our neighbour constituency, Maidenhead, also voted heavily to Remain, and it's MP is the PM who's attempting to enact the Leave vote.

There are times that I sincerely wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.
My pleasure:

Situation before 2017 election (source):



After 2017 election:
Parliament’s silent majority could thwart a hard Brexit

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Three-quarters of MPs voted to remain.
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Anyway there was a general election last year where people voted in the Tory MPs of whom you are complaining so you have no grounds for "a mockery of representative democracy".
That's also the problem with party politics. I don't understand how any Tory Leaver could still vote for the party even if they pinched their nose at the moment, however if there was an election tomorrow they still would.
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  #14828  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We did. The response was a screech of “PROJECT FEAR wibble wibble wibble”
with experts constantly 'balanced', in the Press, TV and the BBC- by some 'flatearther' with some opposite opinion or other.
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  #14829  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Contrasting news from Downing Street...

Quote:
Larry the Cat‏ @Number10cat"The Prime Minister offered me the position of Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. After careful consideration for three seconds, I have declined the offer”
https://twitter.com/Number10cat/stat...24031719403520

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Larry The Cat Resigns
https://uokhun.uk/2018/11/15/larry-the-cat-resigns/

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  #14830  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There never was one available, the UK wanted their government to square a circle.
We will never know now, however I doubt the situation would be the same now if the UK:
  • hadn't triggered Art 50 before contingency planning was finished
  • hadn't triggered Art 50 before having a coherent negotiation strategy and knowing precisely what the UK wanted
  • had made adequate no deal preparations
  • hadn't accepted the EU sequencing of negotiations
  • hadn't accepted the Irish backstop
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  #14831  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Life could be very interesting if someone created a Remain version of UKIP, largely conservative policies but pro EU and then stood against every Brexit Tory MO in a remain area.

Would be good for 50-odd seats.
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  #14832  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So it looks now as if the PM will have to fight a vote of no confidence. Incredible that she'll even contest it, more incredible is that she'll likely survive it.
Not that incredible. Only someone who wants to end their political career will want the job.

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That's the crux of the problem, 70% of Tory voters and 52% of the population voted to leave the EU, yet Parliament and the Tory party is made up in the (vast) majority of Remainers.
You forget that it was never meant to get this far. Even BoJo was a remainer until he saw it as his own vanity project and an opportunity to become PM.
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  #14833  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

You're missing the point Loz. In the referendum, the constiuency was Windoer & Maidenhead, but for parliamentary purposes, Windsor and Maidenhead have different MPs with very opposing views on the EU prior to the referendum. Wigan, my home town, is similarly affected as it has more than one MP for parliamentary purposes, but the constituency lines used for refendum covered more than one parliamentary constituency.

The source you gave clearly emphasises 'Estimated'. That's not empirical proof.
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  #14834  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.
Hardly. The people elect representatives (who in theory are more clued up than them) to represent the interests of the people who elected them. That doesn't necessarily mean doing what the people want, but what the representative believes is in their interest.

Remaining, we can now see, is in the national interest as the people tasked with trying to negotiate a better set of terms have spectacularly failed.
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  #14835  
Old 15.11.2018, 15:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We will never know now, however I doubt the situation would be the same now if the UK:
  • hadn't triggered Art 50 before contingency planning was finished
  • hadn't triggered Art 50 before having a coherent negotiation strategy and knowing precisely what the UK wanted
  • had made adequate no deal preparations
  • hadn't accepted the EU sequencing of negotiations
  • hadn't accepted the Irish backstop
If they had actually done points one to three and people were made aware of what it would really mean, they most likely would never have gotten to points 4 or 5.

And even if they did it would not have made a bit of a difference. Because the EU is rule based and will apply those rules exactly the same and any change to that would require treaty changes which is something they would never agreed to for the same of a thirty country and none to the BREXIT gang would accept the idea of the Danes, the French and the Irish voting to decide there future.
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  #14836  
Old 15.11.2018, 16:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Makes a mockery of representative democracy and has played its part in wrecking Brexit.
The usual old BS. The UK has a sovereign parliament, that is their democracy. If they are not happy with how it works, then perhaps that is where they should start talking about taking back control. Of course a written constitution, enforced by the Sovereign which would restrict parliament is the last thing either side wants.
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  #14837  
Old 15.11.2018, 16:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You're missing the point Loz. In the referendum, the constiuency was Windoer & Maidenhead, but for parliamentary purposes, Windsor and Maidenhead have different MPs with very opposing views on the EU prior to the referendum. Wigan, my home town, is similarly affected as it has more than one MP for parliamentary purposes, but the constituency lines used for refendum covered more than one parliamentary constituency.

The source you gave clearly emphasises 'Estimated'. That's not empirical proof.
You're talking about constituency lines, I'm talking about the entire number of MPs who voted Remain or Leave.
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  #14838  
Old 15.11.2018, 16:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Shock horror - Brexit the disaster movie continues over on BBC 24hr News with breaking news that:

Brexit Secretary - Dominic Raab has resigned saying he cannot in good conscience support, the draft Brexit Agreement.
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  #14839  
Old 15.11.2018, 16:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

This whole Brexit disaster shows the incompetence of British politicians on both sides. They always were incompetent but this has really brought the point home.
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  #14840  
Old 15.11.2018, 17:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The usual old BS. The UK has a sovereign parliament, that is their democracy. If they are not happy with how it works, then perhaps that is where they should start talking about taking back control. Of course a written constitution, enforced by the Sovereign which would restrict parliament is the last thing either side wants.
Just PR, an elected (smaller) upper house, smaller lower house and direct democracy will do nicely. We can ditch the monarchy and forget the written constitution.

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Hardly. The people elect representatives (who in theory are more clued up than them) to represent the interests of the people who elected them. That doesn't necessarily mean doing what the people want, but what the representative believes is in their interest.

Remaining, we can now see, is in the national interest as the people tasked with trying to negotiate a better set of terms have spectacularly failed.
"National interest" has very different meanings for different people, which is why we have politics. Politicians that tend to do things which aren't what people want, but in what they believe are in their interests tend to find themselves out of a job. Which is why we're seeing a huge rise in the far right across Europe at the moment.
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