The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Not when you are building a single market dear, do try to keep up.

I thought there already was a single market, you need to catch up.

Ultimately everyone will earn the same, due to competition the lowest salary will stick. Great Idea the EU will become a better place for investors as costs will fall.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	For example, I am Dutch. Netherlands has the best pension system in the world. Why on earth would the Dutch choose to be in a pension system together with the southern European countries?

Netherlands has the 3rd best state pension in the World. Top spot goes to Croatia. The top 10 are:

1. Croatia 129% of a working wage
2. Turkey
3. Netherlands
4. India
5. Portugal
6. Italy
7. Austria
8. Argentina
9. Hungary
10. Bulgaria

Plenty of southern European countries in the top 10. The bottom three are Mexico, UK and South Africa. So, the 6th biggest economy in the World has the 2nd worst state pension scheme! Disgraceful
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...orking-salary/

Way back in 1981-83, when I was doing General Studies at college, the best state pension in Europe was Italy, and the best maternity pay was Hungary (by a very, very long way).

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Netherlands has the 3rd best state pension in the World. Top spot goes to Croatia. The top 10 are: 1. Croatia 129% of a working wage 2. Turkey 3. Netherlands 4. India 5. Portugal 6. Italy 7. Austria 8. Argentina 9. Hungary 10. Bulgaria Plenty of southern European countries in the top 10. The bottom three are Mexico, UK and South Africa. So, the 6th biggest economy in the World has the 2nd worst state pension scheme! Disgraceful https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...orking-salary/ Way back in 1981-83, when I was doing General Studies at college, the best state pension in Europe was Italy, and the best maternity pay was Hungary (by a very, very long way).

The best pension system and the highest state pension are two totally different things

[fatmanfilms]

Add retirement age differences & what employees actually pay for the benefit.

Italy clearly can't go on paying, no doubt the liability will be shared which is my objection to monitory union.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Netherlands has the 3rd best state pension in the World. Top spot goes to Croatia. The top 10 are: 1. Croatia 129% of a working wage 2. Turkey 3. Netherlands 4. India 5. Portugal 6. Italy 7. Austria 8. Argentina 9. Hungary 10. Bulgaria Plenty of southern European countries in the top 10. The bottom three are Mexico, UK and South Africa. So, the 6th biggest economy in the World has the 2nd worst state pension scheme! Disgraceful https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...orking-salary/ Way back in 1981-83, when I was doing General Studies at college, the best state pension in Europe was Italy, and the best maternity pay was Hungary (by a very, very long way).

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Add retirement age differences & what employees actually pay for the benefit. Italy clearly can't go on paying, no doubt the liability will be shared which is my objection to monitory union.

That only addresses one factor. I know that culturally, in Croatia, India and Italy, pensioners tend to live within the family, or in the same building as their family. That alleviates some pressure on government spending on housing and social care for their pensioners. It's swings and roundabouts.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	That only addresses one factor. I know that culturally, in Croatia, India and Italy, pensioners tend to live within the family, or in the same building as their family. That alleviates some pressure on government spending on housing and social care for their pensioners. It's swings and roundabouts.

That sounds rather like Switzerland too

[Blueangel]

1hr ago...

	Quote:
	I rarely believe in conspiracies but I wonder how upset @theresa_may is that the DUP is taking industrial action over her Brexit plan on the eve of her meeting with @JunckerEU - when she will be asking him to tinker with the backstop plan in a way that appeases the DUP and... ...her Brexit rebels. She can more credibly say to Juncker that if the EU cannot compromise it may find its deal has been blown up by the collapse of her government. Though truthfully I am not sure whether blowing up a government or propping one up is a worse look for the EU

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1064998969707806720

That's quite a catch 22 for Juncker.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	She would have got us a good deal, so we would not have had to leave in the first place.

What would be a good deal? UK already had a better deal than other countries. If you read this thread it is obvious that people blame EU for things that could have been regulated by UK instead of getting out from EU for good. Oh, and some were regulated by UK and people were constantly fooled it's the EU that does this and that.
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" they say....but I guess facts and rationality don't really count in this dispute.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The best pension system and the highest state pension are two totally different things

Plus you can't compare different pension systems as they don't operate in the same way.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Plus you can't compare different pension systems as they don't operate in the same way.

You're missing the point.

Membership of the EU is all about meeting the set minimum requirements as set out by the EU. What a country's government chooses to do above and beyond that, is their own concern. FMF made the point that 'why should we supplement poorer countries within the EU when it comes to pensions, but when you look at the report, quite the opposite appears to be the case. It would likely take a serious adjustment in UK spending, for them to reach the minimum level required by the EU. We don't know where that bar would be set, but it's plainly obvious that's the UK could fall short of it.

Imagine if you were on the board of a company that sells private pensions? You're going to fight such a change in government spending tooth and nail as it would massively eat into your profits.

	Quote:	John William
	Time for a much needed reality check here: An EU Army: I assume were talking about EU Army troops being stationed in the UK and setting up bases in Britain - in other words foreign troops on British soil !! Reality check: As usual the Brexiteers are turning a blind eye to the foreign troops that are already stationed on British soil and in fact have been in the UK ever since the Second World War. I am of course referring to the United States Army and Air Force who never went home after WWII and have failed to go home again after the end of the Cold War. In fact the White House and the US government have always been pulling strings in the UK - the EU ( by comparison ) haven't even come close to exerting the sort of influence the United States enjoys over the UK under it's special, one sided relationship. So the Brexits have already failed before they have even begun - as the UK would have to ditch the special US relationship to really get back control.

I have no concern about EU foreign troops being stationed in the UK because:
1) There is zero strategic value in doing this
2) The UK would never allow it anyway

The "US pulling the strings" that you refer to, is called NATO. And as an EU federalist, you should be jolly happy that it exists as the EU wouldn't were it not for this alliance.

What actually concerns me about EU army is what it will be used for. A central EU controlled army that can be sent into pesky states like Poland or Hungary which aren't playing ball is quite a frightening prospect. Or having dead kids sent back back from the eastern front draped in an EU flag having been shot in the face by Ivan thanks to some ridiculous EU expansionist ambitions is something that I can't really stomach.

	Quote:	John William
	An EU Tax Authority, an EU Labour authority & no doubt an EU Social Security and Pensions system Reality check: The only people who would fear an EU wide tax authority are those with something to hide like undeclared assets squirreled away in off shore bank accounts. An EU labour authority will no doubt bring in a level playing field for those seeking work and employment opportunities both at home and abroad with a harmonizing of qualifications, professional bodies, etc, etc.

A "level playing field" is something of a joke. On the one side the EU hates competition, on the other side they have a currency, which at its core is unfair. I find abhorrent the very idea that a country can be limited on what tax rates it's allowed to set within its own borders.

	Quote:	John William
	An EU wide EU Social Security and Pensions system Reality check: Bring it on - just think if Britain had remained in the EU, the millennial generation could have looked forward to a far, far better EU State Pension, instead of the joke that is the British State Pension, renowned for being one of the developed worlds worst state pension schemes.

I think you need the reality check here, pal. Just who exactly is going to pay for your wonderful EU State Pension? The Greeks? Portugal? Lithuania? Or perhaps expansion into that economic hotbed known as the Balkans will solve the problem? I think you'll find the only place that's EU related where you can guarantee a gold plated pension is if you work for the EU itself.

	Quote:	John William
	Deeper political intergration Reality check Bring it on - it's got to be better than the current crop of British politicians and the cabinet that comprises Mayhem's government. I despair of finding any true statesmen and women in Westminster, like we had in the past !!

And here we get to the crux of it. It's hard for me to imagine what it must be like to feel such self loathing for the country of your birth and its inhabitants that you're prepared, no eager in fact, to give up you own democratic rights (and theirs) and transfer sovereignty to an undemocratic and unaccountable body rather than put up with a bunch of incompetent morons for 5 years.

With 1 in 4 in Europe currently voting for populists and the far-right currently sharing power in Italy and Austria, I think you should be careful what you wish for.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You're missing the point. Membership of the EU is all about meeting the set minimum requirements as set out by the EU. What a country's government chooses to do above and beyond that, is their own concern. FMF made the point that 'why should we supplement poorer countries within the EU when it comes to pensions, but when you look at the report, quite the opposite appears to be the case. It would likely take a serious adjustment in UK spending, for them to reach the minimum level required by the EU. We don't know where that bar would be set, but it's plainly obvious that's the UK could fall short of it. Imagine if you were on the board of a company that sells private pensions? You're going to fight such a change in government spending tooth and nail as it would massively eat into your profits.

That's because the UK has a different system! You have to look in the end at what your pension is worth. Does it account for winter fuel payments? Does it account for free prescriptions? Bus pass? TV licence? What other subsidies does it include? What tax do you pay on it? You can't just go and compare the pension system in one country to another!

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You're missing the point. Membership of the EU is all about meeting the set minimum requirements as set out by the EU. What a country's government chooses to do above and beyond that, is their own concern. FMF made the point that 'why should we supplement poorer countries within the EU when it comes to pensions, but when you look at the report, quite the opposite appears to be the case. It would likely take a serious adjustment in UK spending, for them to reach the minimum level required by the EU. We don't know where that bar would be set, but it's plainly obvious that's the UK could fall short of it. Imagine if you were on the board of a company that sells private pensions? You're going to fight such a change in government spending tooth and nail as it would massively eat into your profits.

You really have no clue what you are talking about, right?
The main difference is that pensions in a country like Italy are paid by the next generation whereas in other countries (let's call it system A), people save for their own pension savings (like in a 3 pillar pension fund - call in system B).


Switching from A to B is an extremely painful process. Changing from B to A means that you are stealing people's savings.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	And here we get to the crux of it. It's hard for me to imagine what it must be like to feel such self loathing for the country of your birth and its inhabitants that you're prepared, no eager in fact, to give up you own democratic rights (and theirs) and transfer sovereignty to an undemocratic and unaccountable body rather than put up with a bunch of incompetent morons for 5 years.

Undemocratic compared to the UK? Are you having a giraffe?

EU legislative governance lies with 3 institutions:

European Parliament - directly elected
European Council - democratically elected head of state of each member state
Council of Ministers - one minister from each democratically elected member state's government

The UK, otoh, has the House of Lords - part hereditary, part appointed. Plus a hereditary monarchy.

	Quote:
	Undemocratic compared to the UK? Are you having a giraffe? EU legislative governance lies with 3 institutions: European Parliament - directly elected European Council - democratically elected head of state of each member state Council of Ministers - one minister from each democratically elected member state's government The UK, otoh, has the House of Lords - part hereditary, part appointed. Plus a hereditary monarchy.

Whatever the UK system is, it only has the UK's interests in mind, and not 27 other countries. The UK also has Parliament Act, which limits the powers of the House of Lords. It's far from ideal but far better than what's in the EU.

The EU has FIVE presidents. You cannot vote for a single one. All you can vote for is an MEP, which sit in an institution that can't legislate. EU commissioners are nominated (you can't vote for them = undemocratic) and and and.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	What actually concerns me about EU army is what it will be used for. A central EU controlled army that can be sent into pesky states like Poland or Hungary which aren't playing ball is quite a frightening prospect. Or having dead kids sent back back from the eastern front draped in an EU flag having been shot in the face by Ivan thanks to some ridiculous EU expansionist ambitions is something that I can't really stomach.

But you can stomach dead kids being sent back from Afghanistan or Irak....my point is that there is a price to pay for being in these alliances. Those kids didn't die for Afghanistan, they died for their countries.

As for a potential EU army attacking other European countries. Pleeease.....and no, I don't agree with this megalomaniac project as it's resources drawing and ineffective cost wise, we're good where we are now.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Whatever the UK system is, it only has the UK's interests in mind, and not 27 other countries. The UK also has Parliament Act, which limits the powers of the House of Lords. It's far from ideal but far better than what's in the EU. The EU has FIVE presidents. You cannot vote for a single one. All you can vote for is an MEP, which sit in an institution that can't legislate. EU commissioners are nominated (you can't vote for them = undemocratic) and and and.

"The EU has FIVE presidents." One is president of the central bank who like the head of the UK Bank of England is not elected and another is head of the eurogroup which is about the euro so of no interest to the UK.
In the UK you have the PM, the Leader of the House of Commons, the Leader and members of the House of Lords who are all not elected.

Like EU commissioners, UK Cabinet Ministers are also nominated.

	Quote:	greenmount
	But you can stomach dead kids being sent back from Afghanistan or Irak....my point is that there is a price to pay for being in these alliances. Those kids didn't die for Afghanistan, they died for their countries.

Absolutely not, which is I am against anything which makes this become more likely.

	Quote:	marton
	Like EU commissioners, UK Cabinet Ministers are also nominated.

Yes, and if they do a shit job they get voted out. Try that with your EU commissioners.

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	You really have no clue what you are talking about, right? The main difference is that pensions in a country like Italy are paid by the next generation whereas in other countries (let's call it system A), people save for their own pension savings (like in a 3 pillar pension fund - call in system B). Switching from A to B is an extremely painful process. Changing from B to A means that you are stealing people's savings.

If by a 3 pillar pension fund you mean Switzerland then the first pillar is not paid from savings but from current year income which is why they always propose increasing VAT to pay for changes. So system B does not exist!

It is no different from any other country where the Govt. pension is "pay as you go" plus there tax incentives to save for your old age.