The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Actually people do retake exams. Maybe not the day after, nor "a million times" but it was a poor analogy nonetheless. A further vote on the complexities of a seismic political event is not really an unreasonable development, nor can it be compared to resitting an exam. Unless, of course, you want to illustrate that something can be improved upon at a subsequent attempt?

I guess I gotta spell out the analogy. Sore losers will not be allowed to resit. There are legit excuses. A momentary laps of...whatever, isn't one of the accepted medical certificates. To call the majority of voting population momentarily inept or incapable isn't very kind. Imho, people voted consciously and wellwishing, it should be honored.

It would be a shame to try to discredit a political system that seems to be to be better quality to than the US one, just because of the (to some unpalatable) result of one referendum.

Thicker skin and more autonomy is what the UK seems to need, imho. You can only get it by honoring people's wishes and forcing the system to adapt. The vote needs to stay respected, the next time people might think differently before they vote.

A friend of a failed Matu candidate, will study 10x more, of course. Will not waste resources to try to figure out excuses.

[MusicChick]

I do have to add that while SK having separated put them in a compromized political and economic situation but - they entered the EU as a separate entity which in this long battle against EU lead globalization dictate and menace is in fact so much better for them, us and the rest of the EEs in the EU. One more vote against EU manipulations and shady interests. A step closer to the CH situation that we all value here so much. A step away from dogma.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I guess I gotta spell out the analogy. Sore losers will not be allowed to resit. There are legit excuses. A momentary laps of...whatever, isn't one of the accepted medical certificates. To call the majority of voting population momentarily inept or incapable isn't very kind.

You say "inept". Nobody is calling them inept apart from you. They were simply not informed. To continue your analogy - do you think it would be fair not to allow someone to resit an exam (Matura, medical, whatever) if they don't have the full information?

"You had a shit teacher and no books. You failed, get over it." Really?

	Quote:	MusicChick
	It would be a shame to try to discredit a political system that seems better quality to than the US one, just because of the (to some unpalatable) result of one referendum. Thicker skin and more autonomy is what the UK seems to need, imho. You can only get it by honoring people's wishes and forcing the system to adapt. The vote needs to stay respected, the next time people might think differently before they vote.

Thicker skin? Yeah, that ought to shut the dissenters up, right? Almost half the voters called out the bullshit on the referendum.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	A friend of a failed Matu candidate, will study 10x more, of course.

Err.. exactly.

[baboon]

	Quote:	bigblue2
	what would a 2nd vote be on? This deal OR hard brexit

Should of course be a 3 option poll with preferences:

1. Do you want the May deal?
2. Do you want a hard Brexit that will seriously impact half of the UKs international trade?
3. Do you on mature and sober reflection want to leave things as they are?

Or something like that.

Interesting btw how the Brexiters are so afraid of a second referendum. Just maybe because they know they would loose.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	John William
	in many Eurozone countries; namely wouldn't you rather have your old currency back rather than continue with the Euro, and the answer is always the same NO !!

Try that in Italy.

(the answer will NOT be NO)

Tom

[Odile]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I guess I gotta spell out the analogy. Sore losers will not be allowed to resit. There are legit excuses. A momentary laps of...whatever, isn't one of the accepted medical certificates. To call the majority of voting population momentarily inept or incapable isn't very kind. Imho, people voted consciously and wellwishing, it should be honored.

Of course you can't resit an exam because of your own personal failures or shorcomings. But if the exam board cheated in a massive way- or if the exam was seriously flawed- then of course. I've known that to happen.

But this is NOT an exam. To pass any exam, you need to be taught, given the facts, explained the consequences, and then do some more study of your own, and learn. In this case, a vote and not an exam- no-one was given the facts- even the Government did not know the facts- and they were either not told of consequences, and lied to massively, as well as the funding for one side of the campaign being fraudulent in more than one way- excess and foreign interference. Comparing the two situations, and exam of this vote, just does not make any sense, at all.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I guess I gotta spell out the analogy. Sore losers will not be allowed to resit. There are legit excuses. A momentary laps of...whatever, isn't one of the accepted medical certificates. To call the majority of voting population momentarily inept or incapable isn't very kind. Imho, people voted consciously and wellwishing, it should be honored. It would be a shame to try to discredit a political system that seems to be to be better quality to than the US one, just because of the (to some unpalatable) result of one referendum. Thicker skin and more autonomy is what the UK seems to need, imho. You can only get it by honoring people's wishes and forcing the system to adapt. The vote needs to stay respected, the next time people might think differently before they vote. A friend of a failed Matu candidate, will study 10x more, of course. Will not waste resources to try to figure out excuses.

Nope, it’s still a pretty shit analogy especially from a British perspective.

Plenty of people get to resit exams. Maybe they didn’t get the grades they needed to be admitted to the course they want to do so they try again at the next sitting. Ok they don’t get to do it the next day and it might not be for free but they can do it and plenty of people do.

[bigblue2]

everyone in the uk could and should have informed themselves, it was blindingly obvious the 350m a week to the nhs was an outright lie, it was blindingly obvious that all those counties (that voted leave) with huge EU grants / projects would lose that funding, if you're that stupid that you believe we can just leave a contract, but keep at the good bits and everything be rosy then you are a moron, a 2nd vote wont stop you being a moron.

Maybe it will be a good thing, the uk population may just have to wake up and hold all the liars to account.

[Odile]

Lots of work and meetings behind the scenes to ensure that NO Deal cannot happen- with many now pushing for a people's vote. That is NOT a second Referendum, this is not re-voting- it is a new vote, on the final deal. Totally different, of course.

The SNP, Labour, some more than others, Greens, Lib Dems and Tory remainers - are all in discussions to ensure this. Even Ken Clarke said he would vote for Mrs May's deal- if it is the only way to stop No Deal. ERG know that they will be isolated, and be made fools of ...

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	.. you think it would be fair not to allow someone to resit an exam (Matura, medical, whatever) if they don't have the full information?

Is it fair to fail a student who hasn't prepared? That's the main reason for exams to exist.

The point is, I am not calling voters unprepared, you are. I think they voted consciously and wellwishingly. What happens now depends on people either honoring the vote or entering a pretty subjective territory of the many interpretations of why the 1st vote should be discredited. It will never work, hopefully. One out of many interpretations cannot be given precedence and be imposed. And if the system tries, it will discredit itself. It is a catch 22 and the only way out is to face forward, honoring what hope people had when going to vote. It will slowly uncover the rotten parts of the political sysrem. It already is very cathartic. SK is in a turmoil but it would have been worse if CZ direspected their wish to part. We are worse off without them, of course, too.

	Quote:
	Err.. exactly.

Thank you.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	bigblue2
	Maybe it will be a good thing, the uk population may just have to wake up and hold all the liars to account.

This. And I think it advances the UK way ahead of the EU. Congrats.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Odile
	In this case, a vote and not an exam- no-one was given the facts- even the Government did not know the facts..

I wish I shared your ideals.

I think that the chance that an individual state government within the EU will not know facts is higher than those govs outside of the EU.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Is it fair to fail a student who hasn't prepared? That's the main reason for exams to exist.

No idea where you are going with this exam analogy but it doesn't fit into the referendum thread so maybe let it die the death it deserves...

	Quote:	MusicChick
	The point, I am not calling voters unprepared, you are.

You called them "inept". I said they hadn't been fully informed. Nobody said "unprepared".

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think they voted consciously and wellwishingly.

They voted with the information they had been provided with. People in charge, who should have known better, used lies and fear to out-do the opposition (both sides).

Anyone who wanted to be properly informed would have to track down long legal documents online because there was no digestible information provided for campaign purposes.

"Wellwishingly"?? Sorry, what? You mean "in good faith"? Yes, I suppose they did. After all, they could only work with what they were given.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	What happens now depends on people either honoring the vote or entering a pretty subjective territory of the many interpretations of why the 1st vote should be discredited. It will never work, hopefully. One out of many interpretations cannot be given precedence and be imposed. And if the system tries, it will discredits itself. It is a catch 22 and the only way out is to face forward, honoring what hope people had when going to vote. It will slowly uncover the rotten parts of the political system. It already is very cathartic. SK is in a turmoil but it would have been worse if CZ disrespected their wish to part. We are worse off without them, of course, too.

You appear to have a huge misunderstanding of the referendum. It would not be hard to discredit any number of the campaign promises on either side. So it's a far cry from "subjective territory".

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	No idea where you are going with this exam analogy but it doesn't fit into the referendum thread so maybe let it die the death it deserves... You called them "inept". I said they hadn't been fully informed. Nobody said "underprepared". They voted with the information they had been provided with. People in charge who should have known better used lies and fear to out-do the opposition (both sides). Anyone who wanted to be properly informed would have to track down long legal documents online because there was no digestible information provided for campaign purposes. "Wellwishingly"?? Sorry, what? You mean "in good faith"? Yes, I suppose they did. After all, they could only work with what they were given. You appear to have a huge misunderstanding of the referendum. It would not be hard to discredit any number of the campaign promises on either side. So it's a far cry from "subjective territory".

So many attempts to call voters uninformed...me surely misunderstanding.. anything else?

Let's get back to the UK and their journey to the independence and healthier political leadership.

I wish other states had the same opportunity to get inspired by the Swiss autonomy.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	bigblue2
	... the uk population may just have to wake up and hold all the liars to account.

Read 'lizards'. Had a moment of picturing Rees-Moggie in 'V'.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	So many attempts to call voters uninformed...me surely misunderstanding.. anything else?

uninformed
/ʌnɪnˈfɔːmd/
adjective
adjective: uninformed
not having or showing awareness or understanding of the facts.
"uninformed criticism of conservation projects"
synonyms:unenlightened, uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unlearned, unread, ignorant "they prey upon uninformed buyers"


deceive
/dɪˈsiːv/
verb
past tense: deceived; past participle: deceived
deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain.

[Odile]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Is it fair to fail a student who hasn't prepared? That's the main reason for exams to exist.

Do you ever read people's posts? This is NOT an exam.

However, even Oxbridge take into account the fact that results in themselves are not necessarily an indication of the intelligence or potential of students. They will actually positively discriminate- knowing that some students have had a poor education and not access to expensive private tuition, etc.

The HOD in my first school in the UK was also the Chief examiner of one of the O'Level boards. He was caught teaching his students everything that was in the exam, vocab, points of grammar, expressions, etc- so his results would look good (he was a **** teacher and could not speak either French or German that he taught. It was impossible to make them resit- but all their grades were lowered. He lost both his jobs, Board and school- and had to go and teach in some obscure private school.

Totally irrelevant here, however.

There is a good reason why, in Switzerland, before each Referendum/vote- a booklet putting forward all the pros and cons and different views- which are strictly assessed for being fair and not lying to the electorate.

You can't expect people, ans perhaps some more than others- to be aware of consequences which not even the Government has foreseen, and has not prepared for. I mean the Irish border, Gibraltar, etc, are quite obvious now to most - but were certainly considerations for the vast majority of people.

Lies, deceit and fraud cannot ever represent Democracy

	Quote:	bowlie
	Pray tell how does the average British Citizen vote out the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs? Parliament can defeat the sitting government through a ‘no-confidence’ process but does not have the authority to vote out an individual cabinet minister. Oh, and how do you vote out the Queen, or her chosen successors? You guys are going to be Stuck with Chuck regardless of what you actually want.

I love the stream of non sequitur that you get over this topic. It's like saying "well you have cancer, so sure you must be happy to get AIDS too?"

But to answer your first point, you can vote governments in and out cannot do the same for EU Commissioners.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	So many attempts to call voters uninformed...me surely misunderstanding.. anything else? Let's get back to the UK and their journey to the independence and healthier political leadership. I wish other states had the same opportunity to get inspired by the Swiss autonomy.

LOL, LOL and LOL.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I love the stream of non sequitur that you get over this topic. It's like saying "well you have cancer, so sure you must be happy to get AIDS too?" But to answer your first point, you can vote governments in and out cannot do the same for EU Commissioners.

Seems like there are more safeguards for dealing with poor performing EU commissioners than UK Cabinet Ministers.

	Quote:
	The European Parliament can dissolve the Commission as a whole following a vote of no-confidence but only the President can request the resignation of an individual Commissioner. However, individual Commissioners, by request of the Council or Commission, can be compelled to retire on account of a breach of obligation(s) and if so ruled by the European Court of Justice (Art. 245 and 247, Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union).