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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #15061  
Old 21.11.2018, 15:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I have no concern about EU foreign troops being stationed in the UK because:
1) There is zero strategic value in doing this
2) The UK would never allow it anyway

The "US pulling the strings" that you refer to, is called NATO. And as an EU federalist, you should be jolly happy that it exists as the EU wouldn't were it not for this alliance.

What actually concerns me about EU army is what it will be used for. A central EU controlled army that can be sent into pesky states like Poland or Hungary which aren't playing ball is quite a frightening prospect. Or having dead kids sent back back from the eastern front draped in an EU flag having been shot in the face by Ivan thanks to some ridiculous EU expansionist ambitions is something that I can't really stomach.
Yes as I said before - it's a nice unequal, special NATO relationship where the American's call all
the shots, as regards their presence and influence in the UK.
Even before joining the EU, the UK was already being dubbed the 51st state of America and
the United States biggest Aircraft Carrier and nothing much has changed since.

Last edited by John William; 21.11.2018 at 15:29.
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  #15062  
Old 21.11.2018, 15:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I love the stream of non sequitur that you get over this topic. It's like saying "well you have cancer, so sure you must be happy to get AIDS too?"

But to answer your first point, you can vote governments in and out cannot do the same for EU Commissioners.
The thing is, you cannot have that duality and have it functional, imho. EU blames individual govs for stuff the EU was supposed to be held accountable for. Individual govs blame the EU for stuff that they should be held accountable for. The result is worse than if we were just a bunch of autonomous states.

Within one country - it works. Provinces, cantons, even with large degree of autonomy there is a hierarchy of responsibilities. CH is a great example of a functioning federation.
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  #15063  
Old 21.11.2018, 15:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Speaks for itself really - its the fear factor raising it's silly head again by those who
would prefer isolation and revert to being called Little Britain !!
Therefore - never fear Little Britain.

As my verdict is bring it on and that's why the above remains in the best interests of the UK
and Britain's millennial generation, as its them that will reap the misguided Brexit result.

Lets take the Single Currency - the Euro as an example:

Those that have been following Michael Portillo's Great Continental Railway Journeys will
know that Michael carries a suitcase full of old European currencies, that were all replaced
by the Euro, when the single European currency was introduced.

Throughout his travels he's never failed to ask the question from ordinary men and
women, in many Eurozone countries; namely wouldn't you rather have your old
currency back rather than continue with the Euro, and the answer is always the same NO !!
In fact in one memorable scene where he visited a car factory in Germany and asked the
same question to car workers ( having their lunch break ) that surely you would prefer
to see the return of the deutsche mark rather than continue using the Euro and even
there, every single car worker he asked, replied NO they would rather stay with the Euro.
"I saw this programme once with Michael Portillo that says the Euro is great, so it must be!"

Back in the real world, it's been a disaster. People are finally starting to wake up and realise it too. Whilst it's been pretty good for Germany, it's been catastrophic for Greece. In Italy, real incomes have fallen since joining the Euro, whilst inequality has risen, together with their pile of debt. Italy are prevented from applying the fiscal measures that they wish to because the EU won't sign off their budget.

Then you move onto the real problem with the Euro, which is how to set monetary policy with a one size fits all philosophy when you have so many different economies to consider? You can't, which is why it'll either eventually fail, or several countries will fail in order to keep the Euro going.

Just because people like it, which remarkably still holds true, it doesn't mean it's a good thing. If anything will end the EU, the Euro will likely be it. The flip side is that in order to make the Euro work, more Europe is needed (banking union, adjustment mechanism between countries, common tax). Which is why Margarete Thatcher was right when she said the Euro was just a back door way of creating a federal Europe.


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Yes as I said before - it's a nice unequal, special NATO relationship where the American's call all
the shots, as regards their presence and influence in the UK.
Even before joining the EU, the UK was already being dubbed the 51st state of America and
the United States biggest Aircraft Carrier and nothing much has changed since.
Well if they're paying all the money for NATO, why shouldn't they call all the shots?
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  #15064  
Old 21.11.2018, 15:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So many attempts to call voters uninformed...me surely misunderstanding.. anything else?

Let's get back to the UK and their journey to the independence and healthier political leadership.

I wish other states had the same opportunity to get inspired by the Swiss autonomy.
" inspired by the Swiss autonomy" you mean like belonging to Schengen, the free movement of people and let us not forget the 100 bilateral agreements that currently exist between the EU and Switzerland.

The on-going implementation of these agreements obliges Switzerland to take over relevant EU legislation in the covered sectors.

As a consequence of its partial integration in the EU's single market, Switzerland pays a financial contribution to economic and social cohesion in the new EU Member States.

Funny sort of autonomy!
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  #15065  
Old 21.11.2018, 15:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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" inspired by the Swiss autonomy" you mean like belonging to Schengen, the free movement of people and let us not forget the 100 bilateral agreements that currently exist between the EU and Switzerland.

The on-going implementation of these agreements obliges Switzerland to take over relevant EU legislation in the covered sectors.

As a consequence of its partial integration in the EU's single market, Switzerland pays a financial contribution to economic and social cohesion in the new EU Member States.

Funny sort of autonomy!

All with no seat at the EU table, right?
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  #15066  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"I saw this programme once with Michael Portillo that says the Euro is great, so it must be!"

Back in the real world, it's been a disaster. People are finally starting to wake up and realise it too. Whilst it's been pretty good for Germany, it's been catastrophic for Greece. In Italy, real incomes have fallen since joining the Euro, whilst inequality has risen, together with their pile of debt. Italy are prevented from applying the fiscal measures that they wish to because the EU won't sign off their budget.

Then you move onto the real problem with the Euro, which is how to set monetary policy with a one size fits all philosophy when you have so many different economies to consider? You can't, which is why it'll either eventually fail, or several countries will fail in order to keep the Euro going.

Just because people like it, which remarkably still holds true, it doesn't mean it's a good thing. If anything will end the EU, the Euro will likely be it. The flip side is that in order to make the Euro work, more Europe is needed (banking union, adjustment mechanism between countries, common tax). Which is why Margarete Thatcher was right when she said the Euro was just a back door way of creating a federal Europe.




Well if they're paying all the money for NATO, why shouldn't they call all the shots?


hope you don't work in finance
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  #15067  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"Wellwishingly"?? Sorry, what? You mean "in good faith"? Yes, I suppose they did. After all, they could only work with what they were given.
.
Not all of them, I mean not in that sense - some just voted against the political class, with the silly conviction that Brexit won't happen and it'd be just a wake up call for the politicians. I mean, you have this category too, although probably not significant . Correct me if i'm wrong, I've been reading this in quite a few articles.
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  #15068  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"I saw this programme once with Michael Portillo that says the Euro is great, so it must be!"

Back in the real world, it's been a disaster. People are finally starting to wake up and realise it too. Whilst it's been pretty good for Germany, it's been catastrophic for Greece. In Italy, real incomes have fallen since joining the Euro, whilst inequality has risen, together with their pile of debt. Italy are prevented from applying the fiscal measures that they wish to because the EU won't sign off their budget.

Then you move onto the real problem with the Euro, which is how to set monetary policy with a one size fits all philosophy when you have so many different economies to consider? You can't, which is why it'll either eventually fail, or several countries will fail in order to keep the Euro going.

Just because people like it, which remarkably still holds true, it doesn't mean it's a good thing. If anything will end the EU, the Euro will likely be it. The flip side is that in order to make the Euro work, more Europe is needed (banking union, adjustment mechanism between countries, common tax). Which is why Margarete Thatcher was right when she said the Euro was just a back door way of creating a federal Europe.

Well if they're paying all the money for NATO, why shouldn't they call all the shots?
Like Trump I suspect you do not understand how NATO works?
The member nations do not pay money into NATO; they are supposed to use 2% of their national budget on their own armed forces.

If the US wants to spend more than 2% on their own armed forces then that is their own decision but has nothing, per se, to do with NATO.

Now if the US was buying military equipment and donating it to the NATO countries then they might have an argument to "call all the shots".
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  #15069  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But to answer your first point, you can vote governments in and out cannot do the same for EU Commissioners.
In which country can you vote a government in or out? As far as I know in every EU state you vote for members of a parliament who then appoint and can remove the government. Exactly the same as the elected EU parliament can approve and remove the Commission, but in the case of the EU the work of the Commission is also overseen and directed by the Council Of Ministers, which is drawn from the governments appointed by the elected parliaments of the 27 member states.

Your problem seems to be your sense of entitlement - you seem to think that your vote and that of UK citizens should count more than that of other EU citizens.

Junker is Commission President because he was the preferred candidate of the majority in the EU Parliament. We will have to wait for the next election to see what happens next, an election in which the UK will have no say, but an outcome that will have a big impact on the UK!
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  #15070  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Caroline Lucas today - bravo

https://www.facebook.com/carolineluc...7089817637678/
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  #15071  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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" inspired by the Swiss autonomy" you mean like belonging to Schengen, the free movement of people and let us not forget the 100 bilateral agreements that currently exist between the EU and Switzerland.

The on-going implementation of these agreements obliges Switzerland to take over relevant EU legislation in the covered sectors.

As a consequence of its partial integration in the EU's single market, Switzerland pays a financial contribution to economic and social cohesion in the new EU Member States.

Funny sort of autonomy!
Of course you pay for it. We all do, it comes from us all. It makes sense to me to contribute to some well defined deals between CH that hosts me, we all benefit from it. But CH deciding on their own on the extent and conditions of the co-operation has nothing to do with the positions that are demanded from the legit full EU members. It is a dictate and not even close to the position of CH. CH is enjoying whatever they handpick out of the EU offer.
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  #15072  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not all of them, I mean not in that sense - some just voted against the political class, with the silly conviction that Brexit won't happen and it'd be just a wake up call for the politicians. I mean, you have this category too, although probably not significant . Correct me if i'm wrong, I've been reading this in quite a few articles.
I agree with you.

There have been a few people appearing on news items interviewed in the street in the aftermath of the referendum with the same "I voted for it but never thought it would happen" line.
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  #15073  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not all of them, I mean not in that sense - some just voted against the political class, with the silly conviction that Brexit won't happen and it'd be just a wake up call for the politicians. I mean, you have this category too, although probably not significant . Correct me if i'm wrong, I've been reading this in quite a few articles.
And places like Sunderland that has a huge Nissan factory exporting to the EU but nevertheless voted Leave by a huge margin.

Now the Nissan chief Carlos Ghosn was arrested then Nissan might well use the excuse to reconsider the future of Nissan Sunderland due to Brexit uncertainties.
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  #15074  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Of course you pay for it. We all do, it comes from us all. It makes sense to me to contribute to some well defined deals between CH that hosts me, we all benefit from it. But CH deciding on their own on the extent and conditions of the co-operation has nothing to do with the positions that are demanded from the legit full EU members. It is a dictate and not even close to the position of CH. CH is enjoying whatever they handpick out of the EU offer.
You have rather a rose tinted view of the EU/CH relationship and of who is in the driving seat; enjoy it while you can.
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  #15075  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In Italy, real incomes have fallen since joining the Euro, whilst inequality has risen, together with their pile of debt. Italy are prevented from applying the fiscal measures that they wish to because the EU won't sign off their budget.

Then you move onto the real problem with the Euro, which is how to set monetary policy with a one size fits all philosophy when you have so many different economies to consider? You can't, which is why it'll either eventually fail, or several countries will fail in order to keep the Euro going.

Just because people like it, which remarkably still holds true, it doesn't mean it's a good thing. If anything will end the EU, the Euro will likely be it. The flip side is that in order to make the Euro work, more Europe is needed (banking union, adjustment mechanism between countries, common tax). Which is why Margarete Thatcher was right when she said the Euro was just a back door way of creating a federal Europe.




Well if they're paying all the money for NATO, why shouldn't they call all the shots?
Common currency is meant to facilitate trade, freedom of goods and capital. Italy has developed a lot due to common agricultural policy and structural funds, same as Spain, Portugal, even Greece. Did you know the infrastructure these states had before EU? I tell you, far from current moment. Many Italians are aware of how far they've come, some others are attracted by the new political movements. Not totally unreasonable, but there are still people who remember. To be honest I am so lucky to have met humble Europeans, thought they're an endangered species. I don't know if EU still serves their needs as before, but to blame EU for everything that doesn't go well now....
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  #15076  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In which country can you vote a government in or out? As far as I know in every EU state you vote for members of a parliament who then appoint and can remove the government. Exactly the same as the elected EU parliament can approve and remove the Commission, but in the case of the EU the work of the Commission is also overseen and directed by the Council Of Ministers, which is drawn from the governments appointed by the elected parliaments of the 27 member states.
In the UK you know who the runners and riders before you vote. You know who is currently in the cabinet, you know how is in the shadow cabinet, and you have manifestos so know what policy will be implemented by whoever wins. In this regard you very much know what government you're voting for.

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Your problem seems to be your sense of entitlement - you seem to think that your vote and that of UK citizens should count more than that of other EU citizens.
Yes, I do, not due to entitlement, but due to democracy and what you bring to the table. The UK, Germany and France pay more, and have more citizens that are represented. Ireland and Malta on the other hand pay peanuts, have small populations yet have the same number of members on the Council and Commission.
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  #15077  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Of course you pay for it. We all do, it comes from us all. It makes sense to me to contribute to some well defined deals between CH that hosts me, we all benefit from it. But CH deciding on their own on the extent and conditions of the co-operation has nothing to do with the positions that are demanded from the legit full EU members. It is a dictate and not even close to the position of CH. CH is enjoying whatever they handpick out of the EU offer.
Handpick- are you sure. They tried in Feb 2014- and get rid of FOP - but soon realised the price to pay would be far too high.

I wonder what proportion of people on this Forum are what Mrs May called EU immigrants into UK 'Queue Jumpers' - how many got jobs here not only because of their talent or experience, but because they could come here and look for a job- or were partly picked, all other things being equal- because it was much easier to employ them, than someone non EU? (no criticism here if they did btw- they just did what was legal and open to them, quite rightly). And how many people feel it is insulting to be callled such. (does not apply to me as I went to live in the UK some years before the EU, btw. My future employer had to apply for me, get the relevant permits and pay, before I was allowed to come).

This guy from Scientists for Europe is not happy about it, for sure:

https://www.facebook.com/scientistsf...1635044914353/
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  #15078  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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" inspired by the Swiss autonomy" you mean like belonging to Schengen, the free movement of people and let us not forget the 100 bilateral agreements that currently exist between the EU and Switzerland.

The on-going implementation of these agreements obliges Switzerland to take over relevant EU legislation in the covered sectors.

As a consequence of its partial integration in the EU's single market, Switzerland pays a financial contribution to economic and social cohesion in the new EU Member States.

Funny sort of autonomy!
Ah yes autonomy is a bit like democracy for some people - it is only OK if I agree with it!

The fact is that Switzerland made the decision to act in its own best interests, you may not agree with our decision but it is ours to make.
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  #15079  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"I saw this programme once with Michael Portillo that says the Euro is great, so it must be!"

Back in the real world, it's been a disaster. People are finally starting to wake up and realise it too. Whilst it's been pretty good for Germany, it's been catastrophic for Greece. In Italy, real incomes have fallen since joining the Euro, whilst inequality has risen, together with their pile of debt. Italy are prevented from applying the fiscal measures that they wish to because the EU won't sign off their budget.

Then you move onto the real problem with the Euro, which is how to set monetary policy with a one size fits all philosophy when you have so many different economies to consider? You can't, which is why it'll either eventually fail, or several countries will fail in order to keep the Euro going.

Just because people like it, which remarkably still holds true, it doesn't mean it's a good thing. If anything will end the EU, the Euro will likely be it. The flip side is that in order to make the Euro work, more Europe is needed (banking union, adjustment mechanism between countries, common tax). Which is why Margarete Thatcher was right when she said the Euro was just a back door way of creating a federal Europe.


Well if they're paying all the money for NATO, why shouldn't they call all the shots?
Nice one - in which case here's an item that the UK will never regain control from the
interference of a foreign country, namely the USA !!

Here's another Reality Check:
American Arrest warrants for the extradition of British citizens to the United States, to
stand trial, are far more successful in having the US Arrest warrant upheld in British courts,
than a European Arrest Warrant !!
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  #15080  
Old 21.11.2018, 16:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Common currency is meant to facilitate trade, freedom of goods and capital. Italy has developed a lot due to common agricultural policy and structural funds, same as Spain, Portugal, even Greece. Did you know the infrastructure these states had before EU? I tell you, far from current moment. Many Italians are aware of how far they've come, some others are attracted by the new political movements. Not totally unreasonable, but there are still people who remember. To be honest I am so lucky to have met humble Europeans, thought they're a dying species. I don't know if EU still serves their needs as before, but to blame EU for everything that doesn't go well now....
And yet they Italy has 10% unemployment and 30% youth unemployment. Investment in infrastructure means nothing if you don't have a job. Whilst there may be some nice roads, and bridges that collapse, the point is it does nothing for the people; the Italian people are far worse off now than before adopting the Euro.
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