The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Indeed, see Catalonia for details. Here's something interesting for you. The Welsh devolution referendum was held in 1997, turnout was 50% and it passed 50.3% to 49.7%. Where were the calls for a rerun over that?

Perhaps the voters on both sides felt that they had been appropriately informed and had voted with "symmetrical knowledge". And, perhaps, that the outcome either way wouldn't really make much difference.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	How do you sanction not showing up to vote then? Maybe that's why it is defined as a "right" to something as well, that "obligation" part is impossible to sanction should people not show up. Hence it is being discussed every few years and still is a right, not compulsory.

Other countries managed well with mandatory voting and one who does not come to pick up a voting paper could simply automatically be fined. So no problem there.

What however is a problem is that one can not force people to actually cast a vote since it is allowed to produce a blanco vote, and the system as a whole would become much more expensive since there needs to be administration of people not being able to vote and if it becomes obligatory and I have to make costs to vote I would insist on these costs being reimbursed (Belgium has a system for this for example)

I agree however that voting should be voluntarily, but would also prefer that people who do not vote simply shut up since they made their choice which is to not be involved in it, so they should stick to that.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	Just wondering. Now that the EU officially says we can revoke article 50 and everything will be as if nothing happened. Des that mean we can revoke it and re-aply it the very next day ---- as often as we like --- and that would reset the clock every time giving us more time to negotiate a better deal?

No, that would be against good faith. The AG actually mentions something to that end in his paper.

[curley]

	Quote:
	As in Australia. It's a $100 fine there, I think. Not huge, but enough to make people think and to appreciate the responsibility given to them.

Fr. 6.00 in Schaffhausen.

German

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Brianzoeu
	Those four are on the verge of bankruptcy, have youth unemployment rates into the sky, and stuck in a slow growth stream for more than 10 years. Look at the USA, Canada, Australia: sailing in reasonable economic growth since 2010. So, the Euro Group is not that useful apparently...

Duno about CA and AUS, but the US are financing their GDP growth by typical deficit spending, just this time they print greenbacks as if there was no tomorrow. Federal debt is going through the roof and as a result, next time the sh1t hits the fan there won't be any additional means to dampen the fall, but why would a billionaire care. Interesting times ahead.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Michelle Obama of course. Who else?

How does this work?

Of course.


Delivering sufficient information to make an informed choice.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Duno about CA and AUS, but the US are financing their GDP growth by typical deficit spending, just this time they print greenbacks as if there was no tomorrow. Federal debt is going through the roof and as a result, next time the sh1t hits the fan there won't be any additional means to dampen the fall, but why would a billionaire care. Interesting times ahead.

I thought the fed doesn't take orders from the POTUS. In which case it isn't the POTUS's direct fault if they chose to drown the economy in green paper.

What a choice, hey :

Next Tory leader, latest odds:

The one who lied on a bus 6-1
The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1
The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1
The one who lied and didn’t resign 15-1
The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1
The one who didn’t know we were an island 8-1

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Delivering sufficient information to make an informed choice.

Suddenly the reasons for the Brexit result are abundantly clear.

Smoke and mirrors are some people's safe space.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	I believe some Swiss cantons have complusory voting, or did until not very long ago. Schaffhausen I think is or was one of them. Citizens who didn't vote were fined. I think it was 5CHF per vote. [..] I don't think Schaffhausen had higher turnouts at votes than other cantons.

Correct (until this day), indeed SH. Correct (raised to an usurious 6CHF not too long ago). Wrong, turnout is literally always the highest in SH; it's (also literally I believe) never less than 60% and roughly 20 percentage points above the national average, perhaps 15 points above the national average when turnout is unusually high nationwide.

The fine used to be a common thing but it was abolished in the other Cantons quite some time ago (like, 20 years ago or more).

	Quote:
	What a choice, hey : Next Tory leader, latest odds: The one who lied on a bus 6-1 The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1 The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1 The one who lied and didn’t resign 15-1 The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1 The one who didn’t know we were an island 8-1

What about the one who copy/pasted David Schneider off Twitter?

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	curley
	With fines. And it is possible, at least here, as every community knows it's people and where to reach them and all incoming "Stimmrechtsausweise" have to be controlled anyway. I guess the main reason it's not compulsory yet is because we're generally not into these types of solutions much.

Generally not into these types of solutions much, indeed. And there isn't anything arbitrary about it.

The 5-6fr is symbolic, not a sanction by Swiss standards. Love the instructionality of it.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	I thought the fed doesn't take orders from the POTUS. In which case it isn't the POTUS's direct fault if they chose to drown the economy in green paper.

Federal debt as such has nothing to do with the Fed's actions. The federal budget is of course the POTUS's product. It requires Ok by both houses (see Trump's recent meeeting with the Dem leaders) but before the midterms that was relatively easy.

Since Reagan the annual deficit usually balloons under the Reps regardless of the economic situation whereas the Dems bring it down, with the exception of the post-crisis years. Federal fiscal prudence and GOP are mostly antonyms.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Since Reagan the annual deficit usually balloons under the Reps regardless of the economic situation whereas the Dems bring it down, with the exception of the post-crisis years. Federal fiscal prudence and GOP are mostly antonyms.

And the Republicans call the Democrats socialists.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Correct (until this day), indeed SH. Correct (raised to an usurious 6CHF not too long ago). Wrong, turnout is literally always the highest in SH; it's (also literally I believe) never less than 60% and roughly 20 percentage points above the national average, perhaps 15 points above the national average when turnout is unusually high nationwide. The fine used to be a common thing but it was abolished in the other Cantons quite some time ago (like, 20 years ago or more).

Thanks for confirming.

So iit would seem that ndeed, the threat of a small and essentially symbolic fine can indeed motivate many people to vote.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	amogles
	Thanks for confirming. So iit would seem that ndeed, the threat of a small and essentially symbolic fine can indeed motivate many people to vote.

Being that people are not registered in the same way as CH, it's not so easy as in CH where everybody knows where you live. Having no fixed address is not uncommon either, benefits can be paid.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Being that people are not registered in the same way as CH, it's not so easy as in CH where everybody knows where you live. Having no fixed address is not uncommon either, benefits can be paid.

Most countries require voters to register and to keep their address up to date, don't they? Even if there is no requirement for registration of place of residence, there is some form of control via the electoral roll. But really, it doesn't matter much if 5 or 10% of eligible voters' contact details are not kept up to date. With compulsory voting you're still likely to achieve turnouts way higher than the sub-50% often seen these days.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Indeed, see Catalonia for details. Here's something interesting for you. The Welsh devolution referendum was held in 1997, turnout was 50% and it passed 50.3% to 49.7%. Where were the calls for a rerun over that?

Probably nobody thought Welsh devolution would destroy the UK economy?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	amogles
	Just wondering. Now that the EU officially says we can revoke article 50 and everything will be as if nothing happened.

The ECJ ruled on it and against the position of the Commission, the Council and the UK government...

	Quote:	amogles
	Des that mean we can revoke it and re-aply it the very next day ---- as often as we like --- and that would reset the clock every time giving us more time to negotiate a better deal?

So genius what exactly would that achieve... you just stay in limbo for ever rejecting the exit deal and never getting to the point where you actually can negotiate a trade deal. And of course it will do wonders for business confidence etc...

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Most countries require voters to register and to keep their address up to date, don't they? Even if there is no requirement for registration of place of residence, there is some form of control via the electoral roll. But really, it doesn't matter much if 5 or 10% of eligible voters' contact details are not kept up to date. With compulsory voting you're still likely to achieve turnouts way higher than the sub-50% often seen these days.

Although it's a requirement less than 90% of adults are registered v supposed adult population. You can't update multiple times a year either, it's a once a year thing.