The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	bowlie
	I am objecting to these all encompassing comments that the majority of ‘the people’ voted for Brexit. Or this is what the people voted for ... Many did not vote expressing neither point a view. Many were ineligible to vote as the were EU nationals, except for the Maltese, Cypriots and Irish. Over 13 million of ‘the people’ were too young to vote. A correct statement would be ‘a majority of the votes cast by the electorate favoured Leave’

So...would you like to think about what FMF's opinion is or would you like to have an argument with yourself about what you assume FMF said. Pedantism works like that. But....but..."majority" for me means... Who cares for individual interpretation of a word. Votes winning are undisputable. Thankfully don't need perso interpretations, democracy is binding everyone to accept the official and formal interpretation of the voting results.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But now the employees have seen or are feeling the effects of the vote. Perhaps they will feel differently now that they have a real idea of what the decision really means for them in practice.

A little bit pregnant is a tad weird. A little bit divorced maybe.

I think I have to object to the idea that people did not realistically visioned what was going to happen. Telling somebody that surely they did not know what their vote meant...is awfully arrogant. And "ok, let's prove it, have another vote" makes it worse since it says "we know you had no idea, just like you probably won't now should exit win again". Sore losers.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think I have to object to the idea that people did not realistically visioned what was going to happen. Telling somebody that surely they did not know what their vote meant...is awfully arrogant.

Of the 4 people I know who voted leave, 3 have been made redundant as a direct result of the shenanigans of the last 2yrs, due to their employers' supply chains being threatened and their jobs being moved to the Continent. 3 of the 4 have since changed their minds and would like to vote again. How is that 'arrogant'? Many of the people screaming for a 2nd vote are doing so because they believe they were misled and lied to. How is that 'arrogant'?

Though it may be a difficult concept for some to grasp, the Northern Ireland backstop never made it to the side of a bus in 2016, yet that is a major factor in May's deal potentially failing in the House.

Of all the thousands of people I've discussed the last 2yrs with, only one person has been correct in envisioning the shambles that has ensued.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Of the 4 people I know who voted leave, 3 have been made redundant as a direct result of the shenanigans of the last 2yrs, due to their employers' supply chains being threatened and their jobs being moved to the Continent. 3 of the 4 have since changed their minds and would like to vote again. How is that 'arrogant'? Many of the people screaming for a 2nd vote are doing so because they believe they were misled and lied to. How is that 'arrogant'? Though it may be a difficult concept for some to grasp, the Northern Ireland backstop never made it to the side of a bus in 2016, yet that is a major factor in May's deal potentially failing in the House. Of all the thousands of people I've discussed the last 2yrs with, only one person has been correct in envisioning the shambles that has ensued.

I could say that people are mislead (or want to think, either way) when thinking that none of these shambles would happen anytime soon. UK in the EU and EU business in general would expand, infinitely. Remind me again why all these expats haven't stayed home. And I am not talking about you nor me, the choice wasn't ours.

It is not possible to infinitely expand. In fact, that idea is so colonialist.

Shambles isn't fault of the Brexit vote but of opportunism. Again, very colonialist.

You may have "talked to thousands of people". I haven't talked to thousands of Brits but I do have an opinion. And those Brits that shared theirs with me. I gotta resist to add a neat disclaimer now to all. "I talked to thousands of people".

[Blueangel]

Why do you keep mentioning 'colonialist'?

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Why do you keep mentioning 'colonialist'?

Everyone has KFC on the mind after the grand opening in Volketswil.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think I have to object to the idea that people did not realistically visioned what was going to happen. Telling somebody that surely they did not know what their vote meant...is awfully arrogant. And "ok, let's prove it, have another vote" makes it worse since it says "we know you had no idea, just like you probably won't now should exit win again". Sore losers.

Here we go again with the myopic view that "everyone knew what they were voting for". Yes you can look at it in a lazy and simplistic way and say "the vote was whether you wanted to be in or out, therefore you know what you were dealing with" or you can look at it with a bit more of a considered view and ask what people really thought the "out" option would leave them with and if, 2+ years later, it's what they still want.

It's not so much the "sore losers" who are pissed off as the "sore winners" who are now faced with the reality of what is fast becoming 20/20 hindsight.

I suggest that we try to stop deluding ourselves that "everyone knew what they were voting for". It's getting embarrassing.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Why do you keep mentioning 'colonialist'?

Ask the thousands of people.

Or, I will offer my humble opinion - because EU is the definition of globalism. Globalism is the offspring of colonialism. It destroys local anything. The leadership does not answer local needs, there is zero autonomy, a few overloards profit. So to want to expand markets and profits the way it was geared wasn't only realistic but selfdestructive.

The way it is dealt with is painful but not the slow death the modern day molochs are facing.

Colonialist mindset is arrogant, to say the least.

	Quote:
	Here we go again with the myopic view that "everyone knew what they were voting for". Yes you can look at it in a lazy and simplistic way and say "the vote was whether you wanted to be in or out, therefore you know what you were dealing with" or you can look at it with a bit more of a considered view and ask what people really thought the "out" option would leave them with and if, 2+ years later, it's what they still want. It's not so much the "sore losers" who are pissed off as the "sore winners" who are now faced with the reality of what is fast becoming 20/20 hindsight. I suggest that we try to stop deluding ourselves that "everyone knew what they were voting for". It's getting embarrassing.

It's not more embarrassing than claiming that people have been misled.


You could vote to stay or to leave, that is a fact. Nobody knows especially the long-term consequences of both options.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	It's not more embarrassing than claiming that people have been misled. You could vote to stay or to leave, that is a fact. Nobody knows especially the long-term consequences of both options.

Come on. Even Loz said a few pages ago that "everybody lied" during the campaign. He even put it in bold so it stood out. You can drop the pretense now.

	Quote:
	Come on. Even Loz said a few pages ago that "everybody lied" during the campaign. He even put it in bold so it stood out. You can drop the pretense now.

Everybody used propaganda to influence the voting, that is true and it what happens in any political debate. Still, the choice was totally clear.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	It's not more embarrassing than claiming that people have been misled. You could vote to stay or to leave, that is a fact. Nobody knows especially the long-term consequences of both options.

I think people actually do. Local development under temporary austerity vs handouts controlled by expensive middle-guys. I don't think never ending squabbles over universal regulations push things towards fast progress.

[bigblue2]

blimey so many pages of going round and round

They had a vote, the public at the time voted leave, end of story. now get on with it.

Personally I think it will be a good thing if everyone in the uk who can vote suffers a bit of pain, maybe then they'll take voting a bit more seriously rather then relying on the dailymail from their facts.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Everybody used propaganda to influence the voting, that is true and it what happens in any political debate. Still, the choice was totally clear.

The acid test for that will be if and when another EU member state decides to "exit" down the line.

Big fat advert for how NOT to do it but it would be worth watching to see what happens.

[bigblue2]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Nobody knows especially the long-term consequences of both options.

anyone with half a brain knows what the long term outcome of leave will be

	Quote:
	The acid test for that will be if and when another EU member state decides to "exit" down the line. Big fat advert for how NOT to do it but it would be worth watching to see what happens.

It will happen at some point as no union in history has lasted forever.

I just wonder how long the cocktail of youth unemployment, high debts, low or no economic growth despite the ECB pumping lots of money into the economy, migration problems and lack of democratic control with plans about european armies etc that nobody wants can continue in the EU. Or maybe I'm just too pessimistic.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

Corbyn calls May "stupid woman".

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-polit...a-stupid-woman

Deny it all you like sir, even I can lip read that.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	'who live in the UK' Clearly that was too complicated a concept for you to comprehend. My answer should now make sense to you and Sandgrounder

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not sure it's wise to be condescending when your back is against the wall. I wonder what tone you and the other Leavers will adopt when the UK (if it remains united, that is) goes tits up not too long after Brexit (if, indeed, Brexit still happens). And tits up it will go; UK households are already poorer by £404 p.a. each since the referendum, even before Brexit happens, and as at September 2018, economic losses due to the referendum amount to 2.5% of GDP. By the end of 2017, national British income was down by £350 million per week. £350 billion of assets were withdrawn by European banks from the UK in the first year after the referendum. Growth of the UK's economy is forecast to be stunted by up to 8% in the event of a hard Brexit. Read here for sources for all these statistics. All in all, a spectacular exercise in self-harm which will only get worse if Brexit goes ahead.

Anyway, back to your point. How many people outside the UK voted? Do you really think their votes made a difference? And speaking of differences, the margin for Leave in the referendum was 1,269,501 votes out of a total of 33,577,342 votes cast (or out of 51,356,768 people of voting age), so yes, the margin was small in relative terms. Just as CHF 6 for a Starbucks coffee is inconsequential for an executive earning >CHF 250,000 p.a. but is relatively extortionate for a worker earning CHF 4,000 per month.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Corbyn calls May "stupid woman". https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-polit...a-stupid-woman Deny it all you like sir, even I can lip read that.

I wouldn't ever support Corbyn's policies, not in a million years, but to me it looks like he said "stupid people" (which is what he claims he muttered, as it happens). You can see the pursing of his lips for a "p" sound twice in the second half of what he says, quite different to the lip formation required to make "w" and "m" sounds.

[curley]

	Quote:
	Come on. Even Loz said a few pages ago that "everybody lied" during the campaign. He even put it in bold so it stood out. You can drop the pretense now.

Wow, who would have thought that Loz would be called out to be the "Zünglein an der Waage" (to tip the scales, according to the dictionary)!

Not sure how to interpret this sentence though. Does it mean: "Even the most stupid on the forum ...."?
(sorry Loz, not my opinion about you )

Being a regular voter in the country I'm allowed to do so, voting works like this:
X wants to convice all others of something they are really, really convinced about.
Z is really, really conviced that this is the worst idea ever.
Each brings up their arguments.(in the country I vote in, they very seldomly shout each other down or call each other names, that is an advantage, I'd say)
The voters listen to both sides. BUT THEY ALSO inform themselves via all kinds of newspapers, internet articles, depending on the subject scientific reports and opinions, friends, families.
They notice X might not talk about some specifics, so they research to find out why this consequence seems to be minor to him and okay to accept ..... and is it also okay to accept for the voter? Same with Z who seems to emphasize things in a manner that the voter needs to go find out if this is really so important and benefitting that it's worth disadvantages that may have to be swallowed to get it.
The voter processes all the information and input, avoids headlines and bothers with the small print ....
Then makes his own decision, according to current knowledge, and votes. And stands behind it.
Should the voter be on the loser side, he accepts the result and takes it from there.
Should in a later stage things not turn out the way the voter (from the winner side) expected them to turn out - after all the work he did - , he doesn't want to vote about it again. LOL. He says "okay, new problem, let's take it from here"

Being part of a democracy is hard work.

People tend to easily forget that there are many different reasons why people would vote or against, and to easily it is being said that people did not know what they voted on. Voting on something is a choice, so stick by it. Not informing yourself properly on what you vote for is something entirely different but also a choice and wether or not it does not make your vote less legit or less valid.

I'm Dutch so could not vote on Brexit, but if I could have voted for a Nexit I would have voted in favour of it, even if this would mean having less money in my wallet I'd vote against the EU, it has become a monster led by a drunk and self-righteous pigs, it is worth something to get rid of such, and independency also comes with a price. And the longer countries wait to get out the higher the price will be until we come to a point where the price is deemed to high to be paid and we're stuck with it. An important reason for me to pick Switzerland to move to was that it is not in the EU and is willing to accept the downsides of that while maintaining a larger state of self-control than ever would be possible within the EU.

And people who are like: Oh I want another vote since I did not know what I voted for are pathetic.