The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	curley
	Wow, who would have thought that Loz would be called out to be the "Zünglein an der Waage" (to tip the scales, according to the dictionary)! Not sure how to interpret this sentence though. Does it mean: "Even the most stupid on the forum ...."? (sorry Loz, not my opinion about you )

Err... no.

I meant it as a hardened Brexiter (hopes for a hard Brexit). Even as a hard Brexiter, Loz stated that there were lies on both sides of the campaign.

Not sure why that wasn't obvious from the context of the post but, hey.

	Quote:
	I wouldn't ever support Corbyn's policies, not in a million years, but to me it looks like he said "stupid people" (which is what he claims he muttered, as it happens). You can see the pursing of his lips for a "p" sound twice in the second half of what he says, quite different to the lip formation required to make "w" and "m" sounds.

Whoever is egging her on to morph into faded copy of Maggie Thatcher needs a slap. It's toe-curling.

[John William]

The Ladybird books - Practical advice and tips for preparing for a Hard Brexit

Just the thing for Christmas - Ladybird books for Grown Ups have surpassed themselves this year.

Ladybird have launched a series of 6 books giving practical advice on how to cope with a
Hard Brexit and its aftermath, all of which are HMG approved ( because frankly HMG
were so late producing their own hard Brexit recommendations. )

Available for order from Amazon UK now, they make the perfect stocking filler for Brexiteer's
and Remainer's alike this Christmas.

Other titles include:
















For those Remainers who have simply had enough of JRM, BoJo and Brexit Britain
in general, then be sure to order your copy of Enid Blyton's, Five Escape Brexit Island

Also available for order from Amazon UK.

	Quote:	curley
	Wow, who would have thought that Loz would be called out to be the "Zünglein an der Waage" (to tip the scales, according to the dictionary)! Not sure how to interpret this sentence though. Does it mean: "Even the most stupid on the forum ...."? (sorry Loz, not my opinion about you ) Being a regular voter in the country I'm allowed to do so, voting works like this: X wants to convice all others of something they are really, really convinced about. Z is really, really conviced that this is the worst idea ever. Each brings up their arguments.(in the country I vote in, they very seldomly shout each other down or call each other names, that is an advantage, I'd say) The voters listen to both sides. BUT THEY ALSO inform themselves via all kinds of newspapers, internet articles, depending on the subject scientific reports and opinions, friends, families. They notice X might not talk about some specifics, so they research to find out why this consequence seems to be minor to him and okay to accept ..... and is it also okay to accept for the voter? Same with Z who seems to emphasize things in a manner that the voter needs to go find out if this is really so important and benefitting that it's worth disadvantages that may have to be swallowed to get it. The voter processes all the information and input, avoids headlines and bothers with the small print .... Then makes his own decision, according to current knowledge, and votes. And stands behind it. Should the voter be on the loser side, he accepts the result and takes it from there. Should in a later stage things not turn out the way the voter (from the winner side) expected them to turn out - after all the work he did - , he doesn't want to vote about it again. LOL. He says "okay, new problem, let's take it from here" Being part of a democracy is hard work.

Sadly, I think that's more the way you approach voting on important issues, rather than the average voter's approach. Also, you have a lot more experience of issue-based voting, given the style of democracy in the country in which you vote , than any of the UK's voters, who are very rarely invited to vote directly on issues (and even then, their vote is non-binding, which may affect the way they vote... "my vote doesn't carry any weight anyway, so why not send a protest message to the government because I don't like what they did to my local school/pension/employer/beer at my local pub").

[MusicChick]

And that is again assuming that the general voting population votes without thinking. It is not true, in my experience. I also think it is very presumptious. Patronizing. It is like the EFers who haven't grasped the cultural differences start calling the Swiss black and white or unsophisticated.

The Brexit consequences are and will be there but not as heavy as when the EU falls apart from the internal and external pressures.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	And that is again assuming that the general voting population votes without thinking.

No such assumption was made anywhere on the thread.

[marton]

	Quote:	curley
	Wow, who would have thought that Loz would be called out to be the "Zünglein an der Waage" (to tip the scales, according to the dictionary)! Not sure how to interpret this sentence though. Does it mean: "Even the most stupid on the forum ...."? (sorry Loz, not my opinion about you ) Being a regular voter in the country I'm allowed to do so, voting works like this: X wants to convice all others of something they are really, really convinced about. Z is really, really conviced that this is the worst idea ever. Each brings up their arguments.(in the country I vote in, they very seldomly shout each other down or call each other names, that is an advantage, I'd say) The voters listen to both sides. BUT THEY ALSO inform themselves via all kinds of newspapers, internet articles, depending on the subject scientific reports and opinions, friends, families. They notice X might not talk about some specifics, so they research to find out why this consequence seems to be minor to him and okay to accept ..... and is it also okay to accept for the voter? Same with Z who seems to emphasize things in a manner that the voter needs to go find out if this is really so important and benefitting that it's worth disadvantages that may have to be swallowed to get it. The voter processes all the information and input, avoids headlines and bothers with the small print .... Then makes his own decision, according to current knowledge, and votes. And stands behind it. Should the voter be on the loser side, he accepts the result and takes it from there. Should in a later stage things not turn out the way the voter (from the winner side) expected them to turn out - after all the work he did - , he doesn't want to vote about it again. LOL. He says "okay, new problem, let's take it from here" Being part of a democracy is hard work.

"The voters listen to both sides. BUT THEY ALSO inform themselves via...."
Normally I would completely agree with you.
But in this case it was impossible for voters to inform themselves what Brexit actually meant because nobody knew; it is clear from the UK Govt. political gyrations over the last couple of years that they had/have no idea either.

"Should in a later stage things not turn out the way the voter (from the winner side) expected them to turn out " The difficulty here is because nobody actually knew what Brexit actually meant so the voters on the winning side did not have a common expectation on how things would turn out.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:
	I wouldn't ever support Corbyn's policies, not in a million years, but to me it looks like he said "stupid people" (which is what he claims he muttered, as it happens). You can see the pursing of his lips for a "p" sound twice in the second half of what he says, quite different to the lip formation required to make "w" and "m" sounds.

And I see the exact opposite. No way is he making any "p" sounds. It's definitely a "w" and "m".

[k_and_e]

First steps of the EU of making the hard Brexit less hard: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	First steps of the EU of making the hard Brexit less hard: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm

Seems the EU are making positive actions in key areas unlike the serial waffle from Downing street.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	marton
	Seems the EU are making positive actions in key areas unlike the serial waffle from Downing street.

Is it about making positive actions or about getting nervous and losing the stare-off?

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Is it about making positive actions or about getting nervous and losing the stare-off?

There is a fine line. They risk a snowball effect of other members. Brexit and the EU reaction is really about a message the EU wants to give to others possibly considering their leave. You can't be a voluntary union and keep members by threatening them - by trying to give a lifetime lesson to the 1st renegate. EU doesn't want others to follow the suit, they gotta be reasonable. It is like a marriage - you won't keep anyone by force.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	When it comes to EU maters, Ireland has a bit of a tradition of repeating votes until they get the result the EU wants.

They're just shrewd negotiators who keep getting the maximum possible. Without the two No's the situation today would be quite different.

[marton]

	Quote:
	People tend to easily forget that there are many different reasons why people would vote or against, and to easily it is being said that people did not know what they voted on. Voting on something is a choice, so stick by it. Not informing yourself properly on what you vote for is something entirely different but also a choice and wether or not it does not make your vote less legit or less valid. I'm Dutch so could not vote on Brexit, but if I could have voted for a Nexit I would have voted in favour of it, even if this would mean having less money in my wallet I'd vote against the EU, it has become a monster led by a drunk and self-righteous pigs, it is worth something to get rid of such, and independency also comes with a price. And the longer countries wait to get out the higher the price will be until we come to a point where the price is deemed to high to be paid and we're stuck with it. An important reason for me to pick Switzerland to move to was that it is not in the EU and is willing to accept the downsides of that while maintaining a larger state of self-control than ever would be possible within the EU. And people who are like: Oh I want another vote since I did not know what I voted for are pathetic.

Being led by a drunk is not necessarily a bad thing; look at Winston Churchill?

Here is a copy of Winston's Doctor's note that he got in America during Prohibition.


I am not sure who you mean by "self-righteous pigs"; if you mean the Dutch MEPs who were voted in by the NL voters then who is to blame?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	First steps of the EU of making the hard Brexit less hard: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm

No it is simply the EU following the WTO procedures in the case of a member exiting a Customs union. Try to keep ups

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	amogles
	When it comes to EU maters, Ireland has a bit of a tradition of repeating votes until they get the result the EU wants.

At this stage it is really boring to find that you are still posting this kind of crap.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	At this stage it is really boring to find that you are still posting this kind of crap.

What an amazingly enlightening contribution on your part

Thank you.

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Is it about making positive actions or about getting nervous and losing the stare-off?

So far as I understand the EU actions, these are temporary actions to ease the pain of transition for both sides.
If they were either permanent changes or changes to the deal then we could talk about winning or losing but that view does not seem to be relevant in this case?

[curley]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	And I see the exact opposite. No way is he making any "p" sounds. It's definitely a "w" and "m".

Yep, I clearly see the same.
While after this he was just a badly mannered male chauvinist (= a very average creature ), him now denying it makes him a boneless plonker.

(The speech of May in that video was a bit weird too ... but hey, who am I to wonder about other people's governements)

[greenmount]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	What an amazingly enlightening contribution on your part Thank you.

Shouldn't we hear all opinions or just pro-Brexit ones?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	What an amazingly enlightening contribution on your part Thank you.

Yes at this this has been covered so many times even DM posted no longer bother with you crap.