The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TobiasM]

The gradual decline of the quality of life in the UK can be simply attributed to poor governance by greedy politicians and the love of giving massive tax breaks to the rich and to mega corporations, whilst privatising anything that is deemed unprofitable.

Nothing to do with immigration nor membership of the EU.

Britain has no one to blame for its current situation other then itself. David Lammy got it quite right.

How does this work?

fyi. RT just happened to be the clip I found, I do not endorse RT in anyway.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Project fear over estimated Bank job losses https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/in...094803896.html

You didn't read your link then?

	Quote:
	In total, Nomura said it now expects 10,000 UK financial services jobs to be at risk of relocation due to Brexit. That is double the Bank of England’s estimate for “Day One” job losses

So the current expectation is only twice the BoE's project fear estimate of 5,000?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	How does that justify the crippling underfunding of the NHS, Police force, education, and all the other public services crumbling away? All on the dodgy never-never?

Government spending has increased & yes on credit.

As peoples' standard of living increased, they lived longer, this has put an enormous strain on the NHS, however due to worse eating habits life expectancy is now shrinking.

Patients not valuing free medical appointments is a huge issue, no show appointments loses them 2 days a month according to a notice in I saw in a hospital in Kidderminster in 2016.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	You didn't read your link then? So the current expectation is only twice the BoE's project fear estimate of 5,000?

Just 630 jobs have been relocated & less than 3 months to go..............

[bigblue2]

you only really see the decline when you go back infrequently, we've basically stopped going back now, its just too stressful.

you see the infrastructure no longer works, roads are poorly maintained and over crowded, lots more 'traffic' calming measures that seem to have been invented to screw things up (traffic lights on roundabouts for a start), everything is dirty - not rubbish but just dirty, and rubbish, rubbish everywhere, and people have seemed to become openly racist, I'm shocked by things family and friends in the UK say, i'm positive they didn't say that kinda of shit when we lived there, people who've never had any kind of interaction (good or bad) with a nationality spouting all kinds of crap about them.

High streets boarded up etc etc, everything just seems to be run down, granted this is the SE.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Government spending has increased

Only if you squint very hard and discount the fact they are using skewed graphs to make it look that way.

To be fair, nobody is falling for that fantasy any more. Not even the government itself.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	The gradual decline of the quality of life in the UK can be simply attributed to poor governance by greedy politicians and the love of giving massive tax breaks to the rich and to mega corporations, whilst privatising anything that is deemed unprofitable.

You believe that mug investors will buy unprofitable business's? It's the government that buys unprofitable business's to save jobs, remember the rescue of British Leyland?

In 1970 tax rate above £20,000 was 83% on earnings & 98% on investment income, there were few rich people. It was only after 1979 when Mrs Thatcher was elected, she cut regulation & cut taxes. The UK then attracted rich people to live & do business, without those tax cuts the UK would be very different today.

	Quote:	bigblue2
	High streets boarded up etc etc, everything just seems to be run down, granted this is the SE.

Yes, this is an aspect I really noticed when I went back. I lived in Stirling for 6 years in the early 2000s and it was a lovely small city with a thriving centre, a good mix of national chains and local suppliers and generally a nice place to live and go out. I've been back a few times in the last 5 years and the high street is half boarded up, and the shops have morphed from nice little boutique style places to about 12 bookies, a few pound shops and some discount travel agents. The decline is shocking.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Fish Paste
	All depends where you are, same as anywhere.

His family are spread over 5 cities and our hometown, so his time was divided between London, Nottingham, Derby, Manchester, Liverpool and our hometown. He also had business in Birmingham whilst he was there. His time was almost entirely spent talking to friends, family and business clients. I'd say that's quite an extensive experience to take his view from.

There will always be naysayers, but I trust him over any of them. Personally, I've only been in CH 100% full time since June. Before that, my time was divided between both countries. I firmly believe that there's an undertone at play that needs to be put down. I can only describe it as a 1970s football thug mentality of blind hatred. I saw it again, in all it's venomous glory, this week when a local newspaper printed an article about a planned UKIP meeting in my hometown. Despite the local UKIP rep being interviewed for the article (and come across as very level headed), the reporter has received dozens of threats. My No.1 issue is that the venue chosen is in the centre of a heavily residential area instead of a town centre location.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	bigblue2
	you only really see the decline when you go back infrequently, we've basically stopped going back now, its just too stressful. you see the infrastructure no longer works, roads are poorly maintained and over crowded, lots more 'traffic' calming measures that seem to have been invented to screw things up (traffic lights on roundabouts for a start), everything is dirty - not rubbish but just dirty, and rubbish, rubbish everywhere, and people have seemed to become openly racist, I'm shocked by things family and friends in the UK say, i'm positive they didn't say that kinda of shit when we lived there, people who've never had any kind of interaction (good or bad) with a nationality spouting all kinds of crap about them. High streets boarded up etc etc, everything just seems to be run down, granted this is the SE.

By your description nothing has really changed then in the last 30 years.

In my experience, there was always alot of racism, rubbish, dirt and potholes, bad pavements, poor public facilities. at least in the part of London I came from, and I came from a relatively affluent borough. I went to a comprehensive school with a lot of people from local estates with working class backgrounds. In the eighties when I was at school, there was a lot of racism.

Since 2008 there has been a lot of closure on the average high street, many big names have gone. But there was always a turnover of businesses on the high street where I grew up, restaurants being the most obvious ones to change on a regular basis.

I think some people on the Forum have grown very accustomed to the Swiss quality of life.

[fatmanfilms]

You probably don't remember the dustman's strike, probably one of the reasons Mrs Thatcher got elected. I worked close by at the time

	Quote:	TobiasM
	By your description nothing has really changed then in the last 30 years. In my experience, there was always alot of racism, rubbish, dirt and potholes, bad pavements, poor public facilities. at least in the part of London I came from, and I came from a relatively affluent borough. I went to a comprehensive school with a lot of people from local estates with working class backgrounds. In the eighties when I was at school, there was a lot of racism. Since 2008 there has been a lot of closure on the average high street, many big names have gone. But there was always a turnover of businesses on the high street where I grew up, restaurants being the most obvious ones to change on a regular basis. I think some people on the Forum have grown very accustomed to the Swiss quality of life.

[TobiasM]

Quote function not working?

	Quote:
	You believe that mug investors will buy unprofitable business's? It's the government that buys unprofitable business's to save jobs, remember the rescue of British Leyland?

Well its the government that offers a bailout to a business in order to protect jobs, that doesnt mean it wants to keep hold of unprofitable businesses or services.

British Mail
Prison services
Parking enforcement
Care services
Public Transport
Energy suppliers
etc, etc...

The Cons are just hoping that they can do the same to the NHS and they have started. Mug investors like Virgin you mean?

	Quote:	TobiasM
	Quote function not working? Well its the government that offers a bailout to a business in order to protect jobs, that doesnt mean it wants to keep hold of unprofitable businesses or services. British Mail Prison services Parking enforcement Care services Public Transport Energy suppliers etc, etc... The Cons are just hoping that they can do the same to the NHS and they have started. Mug investors like Virgin you mean?

Unfortunately, the unprofitable sectors were sold to companies like Virgin who got subsidized to ridiculous levels, so that any upside was taken in dividends and any downside was footed by the taxpayer. Perfect business to be in! Branson is no mug, he's the mugger.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	By your description nothing has really changed then in the last 30 years. In my experience, there was always alot of racism, rubbish, dirt and potholes, bad pavements, poor public facilities. at least in the part of London I came from, and I came from a relatively affluent borough. I went to a comprehensive school with a lot of people from local estates with working class backgrounds. In the eighties when I was at school, there was a lot of racism.

My first visit to London was in the 90's. And I was amazed by the huge amount of potholes in the road and wheel caps that were laying everywhere. I've seen in two weeks more loose wheel caps than in the 5 yrs before or after in the Netherlands.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The time frame I calmed was the last 50 years, stop trying to twist what I am saying. You know perfectly well since 1880 or 1969 standard of living has increased in the UK. Any recent reduction can probably be blamed on over use of easy credit, which was not easily available in 1969.

Credit is exactly what has brought us to the so-called better standard of living. Want a new car? Sure, here's a car loan. How about a second, third telly? Just pop them on HP. New fridge? Don't aim so low, why not get a whole new kitchen with the full range of imported appliances; all you need to do is extend your mortgage a little bit.

Those options weren't widely available in 1969 (or 1880).

Yet, despite the growth in consumption and mindless acquisition (which it seems you take as a proxy for living standards), most people would agree that over the last 50 years the efficiency of public services in the UK has deteriorated badly, people feel less safe, and the working population has longer commutes (due largely to housing unaffordability) and are more stressed than ever. But Brexit will solve all that.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	in 1971 there were 19 million cars in the UK (population 56 million) by 2007 were 31 million cars (Population 61 million) Car ownership grew far faster than the population in general as standard of living increased in those 36 years.

Statistically that implies no change if you look at it on a per-household basis. Both data points mean roughly one car per household as persons per household dropped from 3 in 1971 to a tad above 2 today.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Those options weren't widely available in 1969 (or 1880).

Add to that, women used to have to have their husband, father or even brother act as guarantor for any financial lending.

I remember my dad giving my mum an M&S charge card for her birthday in the late 1970s, so that she could buy herself a new winter coat. It was 2mths before he realised that she was also putting all the food shopping on the card.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Add to that, women used to have to have their husband, father or even brother act as guarantor for any financial lending.

Forgive my hijacking but was that just practice or some sort of (legal perhaps) requirement? And what about buying real estate? Owning and running a company and having (male) employees?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Forgive my hijacking but was that just practice or some sort of (legal perhaps) requirement? And what about buying real estate? Owning and running a company and having (male) employees?

Never a legal requirement in the UK, probably very different from CH.
A non working person would need a guarantor if they wanted credit, today social benefits is enough.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	Because it wasn't needed in 1969 - the multiple of the average salary to buy the average house was much lower. See, not every aspect of living conditions improves over time...

Bank of England base rate at the end of 1979 was 17%, feel free to look up mortgage interest rates.

Like today, prices are in the upper parts of the price range potential buyers can afford. It's just that idiotic programs like Help to buy (London) push them even higher. Usually such attempts at distorting market prices end in tears.

	Quote:
	Yet, despite the growth in consumption and mindless acquisition (which it seems you take as a proxy for living standards), most people would agree that over the last 50 years the efficiency of public services in the UK has deteriorated badly, people feel less safe, and the working population has longer commutes (due largely to housing unaffordability) and are more stressed than ever. But Brexit will solve all that.

What if that also applied to the more distant past, but people had more urgent matters to deal with that reduced the relative importance of what you mention? I kinda doubt someone working the mines and destroying their lung in the process had public transport safety at the front of their mind.