The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But that's me. Does he also ask to smell their farts? I finally got around to watching 'Brexit: The Uncivil War' this afternoon. Oooo! I know it's a drama, but it's still a lesson to us all in so many ways. Has anyone else watched it?

The way the most vulnerable in society were targeted for marketing purposes, via football sites, etc, is shocking and disgusting in the extreme. And now those who donated huge sums to the Leave campaign that behaved in that way- are complaning that they are not getting 'the Brexit they paid for' - and wsome have the gall to talk about Democracy- and how an infored vote on the final deal, would be an attack on said Democracy.

It has been said many times on this thread - no, you just could not make it up.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	The way the most vulnerable in society were targeted for marketing purposes, via football sites, etc, is shocking and disgusting in the extreme.

1 billion social media adverts, yet I only ever saw them when shared on fb or ef. They were never in my newsfeed, and now I know why. I wasn't in their target 34%. And it was all just Robert Mercer's practise run for the big one.

[Blueangel]

One of the few Tory MPs that I admire, and he's consistent.

	Quote:
	Kate McCann‏Verified account @KateEMcCann Conservative minister @Tobias_Ellwood has just told @carolynquinncq that he will resign as a minister if UK leaves EU with no deal. Says many ministers would do the same. 2:16 PM - 13 Jan 2019

https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/stat...74926496022529

	Quote:
	No-deal Brexit 'simply not an option' and would damage UK's security, warns defence minister Defence minister Tobias Ellwood says it would be a 'folly' for the PM to deliberately pursue no deal

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8697671.html

	Quote:	Blueangel
	It was a comment on the climate of discourse at the moment, and Liverpool is the notable exception to this which might surprise some.

Lol.

https://twitter.com/Shaunsmith1878/s...48252865929216

How does this work?

[st2lemans]

"Theresa May says no Brexit more likely than no deal"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46856149

Tom

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	1 billion social media adverts, yet I only ever saw them when shared on fb or ef. They were never in my newsfeed, and now I know why. I wasn't in their target 34%. And it was all just Robert Mercer's practise run for the big one.

You are probably not be a vulnerable visitor of football sites

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	"Theresa May says no Brexit more likely than no deal" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46856149 Tom

I saw that earlier on the beeb and remembered what I wrote here last month.

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	...... I've been thinking over the last few weeks that May has been playing a clever game, I've actually had some sneaky admiration for the way she has stuck at it and got an agreement, probably the only one that could possibly work. But of course parliament will reject it and she'll just hold up her hands and say "Ok, I've done my best, there isn't a better agreement possible, what do you want to do? Let's ask the people again!" And I reckon she's confident that a 2nd referendum will vote to remain, which is what she wanted all along. At the end of the day the whole thing is a farce and immensely embarrassing and damaging to the UK.

Now she's mentioning publicly what I think she might have wanted all along, a 2nd referendum (although I can't see parliament allowing it). And still, the whole thing is a farce.

[Fish Paste]

It’s a fantastic example to the rest of the world to get their ducks in a row before going off half cocked.

I think you’re correct. Though how we get to the 2nd referendum I do not know, there should be 7 years inbetween.

Don't consider it at all a 'second' referendum - but very much a first informed one on the final deal available. Two very different things.

[marton]

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	I saw that earlier on the beeb and remembered what I wrote here last month. Now she's mentioning publicly what I think she might have wanted all along, a 2nd referendum (although I can't see parliament allowing it). And still, the whole thing is a farce.

Not a farce; more of a Greek tragedy or a slow motion train crash!

and now "EU preparing to delay Brexit until at least July"

Source

That will be over three years since the vote and UK business still has no clear guidelines on how to prepare for Brexit!

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	Don't consider it at all a 'second' referendum - but very much a first informed one on the final deal available. Two very different things.

I don't think you can do a referendum on a deal, from a practical point of view.



First of all, this is an extremely complicated and long legal document. How can you expect all voters to understand this? Also, how many people have read the current proposal?



Second, what do you do if the deal will be rejected? Stay forever in the EU or try to renegotiate something? You don't know what should be changed exactly to get it accepted.

This is what Corbyn thinks, and no, I don't believe that is possible- and that he is totally deluded, and dishonest too.

So there are 2 options open, No Deal, or put your hands honestly up and say- we tried, but it just can't be done, partly because or the Irish border- where there is no solution- and partly because we are now aware of the massive damage that No Deal would create for the country.

Explain that Cameron should have done some serious study before throwing a Referendum into the ring without any consideration for what it would really mean in practice. And explain that since the vote, very strong and irrefutal evidence has come up re blatant lies, fraud, targeted manipulation by media paid for by donors who wanted to 'buy Brexit', foreign interference, and large numbers of votes never counted - and that in view of current knowledge - the very best option is to withdraw article 50 - or put it to the vote again- now that people are able to so with the facts at hand.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	Now she's mentioning publicly what I think she might have wanted all along, a 2nd referendum (although I can't see parliament allowing it). And still, the whole thing is a farce.

Utter farce, and I'm not 100% sure this is the best way to go.

To my mind, a huge part of the issue is that the UK has a representative democracy, yet employed the tool of direct democracy to make a decision that would never have got through parliament. We're asking MPs from Remain constituencies to represent the will of people who didn't elect them, and the constituencies used for GEs and the referendum don't even correlate. The logical path of responsibility entirely breaks down. At the end of 5yrs, if things go tits up, we would normally vote out the people who made bad decisions. If those people are us, where do we go from there?

On the other hand, now that Mercer and Co. have won 'the prize' they were aiming for (the Presidency), and bearing in mind that some (at least) members of the public are now wise to this, would the same data exploitation tactics be employed? From what I see, there's been no let up in the social media targetted adverts, maybe in an effort to harden the resolve of the core voters.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Utter farce, and I'm not 100% sure this is the best way to go.

The best bit is watching how far the Brexiters will go to defend it. Every day it ratchets up another notch of unworkable ridiculousness and the Brexiters dig deeper to find some barmy logic to keep it afloat.

It's like watching the stamina of a bunch of toddlers trying to justify the half chewed slices of toast rammed in the DVD player...

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I don't think you can do a referendum on a deal, from a practical point of view. First of all, this is an extremely complicated and long legal document. How can you expect all voters to understand this? Also, how many people have read the current proposal? Second, what do you do if the deal will be rejected? Stay forever in the EU or try to renegotiate something? You don't know what should be changed exactly to get it accepted.

How could you expect voters to understand what Brexit would actually be in the first place without explaining the implications it would have on business, trade and the Northern Ireland Border. All of those things should have been thought and planned out and explained as part of the Brexit vote in the first place.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	How could you expect voters to understand what Brexit would actually be in the first place without explaining the implications it would have on business, trade and the Northern Ireland Border. All of those things should have been thought and planned out and explained as part of the Brexit vote in the first place.

It would mean that you first need to start the procedure of leaving, then negotiate some agreement and first then do the voting.


Realistically, it's better to vote for a Brexit and openly and honestly communicate that you have no clue about the outcome.

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	It would mean that you first need to start the procedure of leaving, then negotiate some agreement and first then do the voting. Realistically, it's better to vote for a Brexit and openly and honestly communicate that you have no clue about the outcome.

Not at all and that's not what I meant. Before the vote it could (and should) have been pointed out what the implications of Brext might be. A negotiated solution to the Irish border, what sort of trade deal, if any, the UK would be able to negotiate with the EU (and the rest of the world in case of a hard Brexit). And also that it could take some years to complete these negotiations.

I still meet some Brits who voted for Brexit who still have no idea what the implications might be. I met a group of elderly folk recently who were dumbfounded to realise that their grandchildren at University in the UK will have lost their automatic right to work in Europe post Brexit. They actually asked me why that would be the case!

Some tried to explain the consequences- they were dismissed as 'project fear' ...

Such people who voted for Brexit without any idea of what it would mean for them or their children and grandchildren back home, and indeed themselves in EU, are plentyful in parts of France, Spain, Portugal, etc, all over EU- it is mind boggling.

[Clocker]

Apparently it's now going to be possible to survive Brexit by purchasing a special Brexit Box for just under £300.--.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46814527

Do you think if I get one sent to a German packet shop and then get the invoice stamped at the border I can get the UK VAT back?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Some tried to explain the consequences- they were dismissed as 'project fear' ... Such people who voted for Brexit without any idea of what it would mean for them or their children and grandchildren back home, and indeed themselves in EU, are plentyful in parts of France, Spain, Portugal, etc, all over EU- it is mind boggling.

Brits as a rule just speak English, FOM is not useful to the majority. Not wishing to blame this on a foreign language teacher, Why is this?