The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	greenmount
	Although Trump's fans, as well as convinced Brexiteers, would never admit defeat.

This is exactly where you are wrong. The remainers have lost but are still in denial. For Trump fans or haters, there is always a next election.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	This is exactly where you are wrong. The remainers have lost but are still in denial. For Trump fans or haters, there is always a next election.

I don't think it's denial of having lost. That much is clear. Remainers are ticked off because mostly they were right. The denial from the Brexiters is that they still think it will work as it was touted in the campaign.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	This is exactly where you are wrong. The remainers have lost but are still in denial.

Let's see what happens today....

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	This is exactly where you are wrong. The remainers have lost but are still in denial. For Trump fans or haters, there is always a next election.

Not in denial, I am sure the NHS will be stuffed full with money at any moment.

True about Trump; an odd contrast with Brexit where there is no new referendum planned.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Not saying that TV habits are necessarily revealing (although we all suspect they are!), but if you want a clear divide, then look no further than 2017's most viewed programs - half are Blue Planet II and half are Strictly / I'm a Sleb...

Must be part of the crossover because I watch both.

It's not about being stupid. Many British people take no interest in politics whatsoever, and I don't blame them. Despite both of my grandfathers being very political, but one of my nans always voted for whoever had the kindest eyes She wasn't a stupid person by any stretch of the imagination, but when the main parties were offering pretty much the same, that was her deciding factor.

I am going to go back to 'Brexit: The Uncivil War' because it really highlights how Leave were in a losing position, but data mining was used to identify, entrench and mobilise the 34% of the population who never vote. The media didn't report on this aspect of the campaign because (like me) they never saw it.

I had a very long conversation at the time, with a friend who was bemoaning being called a racist by mutual former colleagues for her views. I know she isn't. I've known her for 30+yrs and worked with her for 15 of them, but she was parroting 'facts' that were wildly untrue. When I asked where she was getting this shite from, she said, "It's all over facebook". It wasn't all over my facebook, probably because a look at my data would pigeonhole me as an 'ardent internationalist'. Her page is full of photos of her kids and grandchildren, and posts about redundancy.

So let's look at this logically.... 34% of the population don't vote, even in GEs. When we go on Facebook (in particular), we tend to be more receptive emotionally because we're seeing photos of friends and family. That mental state makes us susceptible. If you're a football fan, it could be argued that when visiting a football related site, your mental state is one of pride. Again, it's a susceptible state of mind.

The Leave campaign was bloody brilliant, but it was based upon digging into emotional responses of the 34% and paid scant attention to the facts.

It all worked, and the tactics employed secured the ultimate prize for Mercer, the US Presidency.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	It's not about being stupid.

We're all entitled to our opinions of course, but could you give a more apt adjective for people who were emotionally persuaded to vote against their own interests, rather than using logic to think out their position?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	We're all entitled to our opinions of course, but could you give a more apt adjective for people who were emotionally persuaded to vote against their own interests, rather than using logic to think out their position?

You know better than that. It's the juxtaposition of the message that amplifies it, same as with product placement.

Edit: Add to that, the tactic of accusing your opponent of that which you are guilty of, ad infinitum. Every response based upon facts and logic was labelled 'Project Fear' by the people touting fear of immigration and losing the NHS.

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:
	We're all entitled to our opinions of course, but could you give a more apt adjective for people who were emotionally persuaded to vote against their own interests, rather than using logic to think out their position?

Gullible?

	Quote:
	I don't think it's denial of having lost. That much is clear. Remainers are ticked off because mostly they were right. The denial from the Brexiters is that they still think it will work as it was touted in the campaign.

I do think it is a kind of denial. It looks like nobody actually expected the outcome of the vote and thought of what to do in case of a leave. The winner of the process is probably the EU: in case the Brexit will be withdrawn, no other country would probably try to leave in the next years.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You know better than that. It's the juxtaposition of the message that amplifies it, same as with product placement.

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	Gullible?

I think, with the greatest of respect, we are splitting hairs a bit at this point. The first two definitions of "stupid" are:

1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.

If you think that doesn't apply here, then that's fine, but I will disagree.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I do think it is a kind of denial. It looks like nobody actually expected the outcome of the vote and thought of what to do in case of a leave. The winner of the process is probably the EU: in case the Brexit will be withdrawn, no other country would probably try to leave in the next years.

Well that maybe true but you intimated that Remainers were in denial because they lost, which is different and clearly not true.

Of course Remainers didn't put too much consideration on a leave outcome. Why should they? The Brexiters broke it, they have to fix it. Instead they are waggling their finger at Remainers and whining that they're doing nothing to help. Brexiters need to stand by their shitshow and own it for once.

In simple terms, it's like burning your own house down despite the wishes of your family then getting pissed off with them because they won't sort it out for you.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	If you think that doesn't apply here, then that's fine, but I will disagree.

Then we'll have to disagree. There is an element of stupid, but there's a huge element of people who respond emotionally rather than logically. People can be logically mature but emotionally barren, and vice versa. That doesn't make them stupid. It was up-to-the-second logical maturity that won the referendum by using emotional exploitation.

	Quote:
	Well that maybe true but you intimated that Remainers were in denial because they lost, which is different and clearly not true. Of course Remainers didn't put too much consideration on a leave outcome. Why should they? The Brexiters broke it, they have to fix it. Instead they are waggling their finger at Remainers and whining that they're doing nothing to help. Brexiters need to stand by their shitshow and own it for once. In simple terms, it's like burning your own house down despite the wishes of your family then getting pissed off with them because they won't sort it out for you.

How can the Brexiteers stand by their “shitshow” when there’s a political system in place that doesn’t allow them? The Tory party is remain and chose a Remainer as Prime Minister. Parliament is vastly Remain and are doing their best to frustrate Brexit. How are Brexiteers supposed to fix it? It’s the system that’s the problem.

Perhaps they should have considered how a representative democracy works before voting, and understood that their vote was not legally binding, just advisory? Ho hum.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	How can the Brexiteers stand by their “shitshow” when there’s a political system in place that doesn’t allow them? The Tory party is remain and chose a Remainer as Prime Minister. Parliament is vastly Remain and are doing their best to frustrate Brexit. How are Brexiteers supposed to fix it? It’s the system that’s the problem.

Nope. It's pretty clear that it's unworkable without causing irreversible harm to the country so the Remainers are just the convenient patsys to blame.

Brexiters have been caught in the mother of all scams.

	Quote:
	Well that maybe true but you intimated that Remainers were in denial because they lost, which is different and clearly not true. Of course Remainers didn't put too much consideration on a leave outcome. Why should they? The Brexiters broke it, they have to fix it. Instead they are waggling their finger at Remainers and whining that they're doing nothing to help. Brexiters need to stand by their shitshow and own it for once.

No. A country democratically decides to leave. There is not something as "the Brexiters" as the Brexiters did not own the referendum. There is only the outcome of a referendum and that outcome is to leave. It is then up to a government to either implement the change or ignore the outcome.


If this is a fail, then it is a collective fail.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	No. A country democratically decides to leave. There is not something as "the Brexiters" as the Brexiters did not own the referendum. There is only the outcome of a referendum and that outcome is to leave. It is then up to a government to either implement the change or ignore the outcome. If this is a fail, then it is a collective fail.

To be honest, if I got roped into trying to implement promises that were impossible, with the risk of getting the blame for not implementing those impossible dreams, I'd probably not poke my head above the parapet either. People who lied need to own those lies, not try to make everyone else equally responsible.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	No. A country democratically decides to leave. There is not something as "the Brexiters" as the Brexiters did not own the referendum. There is only the outcome of a referendum and that outcome is to leave. It is then up to a government to either implement the change or ignore the outcome. If this is a fail, then it is a collective fail.

Of course Brexiters took ownership of the referendum. It happened as soon as the result was finalised. THEY are the ones who should have figured out what to do in the event they won. Remainers didn't need a plan. Had they won, things would have just continued as they were.

I've no idea why this is so complicated.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	How can the Brexiteers stand by their “shitshow” when there’s a political system in place that doesn’t allow them? The Tory party is remain and chose a Remainer as Prime Minister. Parliament is vastly Remain and are doing their best to frustrate Brexit. How are Brexiteers supposed to fix it? It’s the system that’s the problem.

It's almost like there was a blindingly obvious lack of foresight, isn't there?

	Quote:
	Of course Brexiters took ownership of the referendum. It happened as soon as the result was finalised. THEY are the ones who should have figured out what to do in the event they won. Remainers didn't need a plan. Had they won, things would have just continued as they were. I've no idea why this is so complicated.

But there is not such a group, that's what you don't seem to understand. You could give Brexiters a mandate to negotiate the deal and lead the exit only if you you know who those people - and put them in charge. Is it the people that voted for Brexit? Is it the people that campaigned for Brexit? Is it the people that at any point favored Brexit in public?



Compare it with any random referendum in Switzerland and see who will actually implement the outcome.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	People in the US had no choice: Hillary or Trump. Trump is simply the result of a failed political system.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating: more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump.

Just sayin'.