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#**16481** 15.01.2019, 11:31

	Quote:	k_and_e
	But there is not such a group, that's what you don't seem to understand. You could give Brexiters a mandate to negotiate the deal and lead the exit only if you you know who those people - and put them in charge. Is it the people that voted for Brexit? Is it the people that campaigned for Brexit? Is it the people that at any point favored Brexit in public? Compare it with any random referendum in Switzerland and see who will actually implement the outcome.

No idea what you are trying to say with that, to be fair

Yes, the people voted (relatively marginally) in favour for Brexit and yes it's up to the government to implement it but there is too much of the "them vs us" (proved by your earlier point of "Remainers are in denial") attitude within the general population which is muddying the waters.

The section of the government (and opposition too, if you like), that oppose Brexit are under no obligation to vote for whatever dog's dinner the PM serves up today.

#**16482** 15.01.2019, 11:33

	Quote:
	Nope. It's pretty clear that it's unworkable without causing irreversible harm to the country so the Remainers are just the convenient patsys to blame.

Germany was flattened in 1945. Brexit will cause significantly less harm than this. No harm is "irreversible".

	Quote:
	Of course Brexiters took ownership of the referendum. It happened as soon as the result was finalised. THEY are the ones who should have figured out what to do in the event they won. Remainers didn't need a plan. Had they won, things would have just continued as they were. I've no idea why this is so complicated.

The two leading Tory Brexiteers (Boris and Gove) went for the Tory leadership but were prevented from getting it by Conservative party members. They wanted to take ownership of Brexit but were prevented from doing so.

I've no idea why this is so complicated for you to grasp.

#**16483** 15.01.2019, 11:42

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Germany was flattened in 1945. Brexit will cause significantly less harm than this. No harm is "irreversible".

Define harm.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The two leading Tory Brexiteers (Boris and Gove) went for the Tory leadership but were prevented from getting it by Conservative party members. They wanted to take ownership of Brexit but were prevented from doing so. I've no idea why this is so complicated for you to grasp.

Tory leadership is not ALL about Brexit.

Blueangel · #**16484** 15.01.2019, 11:46

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The two leading Tory Brexiteers (Boris and Gove) went for the Tory leadership but were prevented from getting it by Conservative party members. They wanted to take ownership of Brexit but were prevented from doing so. I've no idea why this is so complicated for you to grasp.

We're you asleep?

How does this work?

#**16485** 15.01.2019, 11:51

	Quote:
	Define harm.

Harm somewhat worse than Brexit.

	Quote:
	Tory leadership is not ALL about Brexit.

When they're the party in government, it kinda is.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	We're you asleep?

I guess you must have been or else you would have known why he had to withdraw.

#**16486** 15.01.2019, 11:57

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Harm somewhat worse than Brexit.

Bit narrow-minded and hysterical but, hey, that's been Brexit all along. Kinda fits.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	When they're the party in government, it kinda is.

No it's not. Brexit is one issue of hundreds, despite its pride of place in the headlines.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I guess you must have been or else you would have known why he had to withdraw.

So he couldn't take the heat. Plus it wasn't hard to see beneath his thin veneer of empty bluster.

Blueangel · #**16487** 15.01.2019, 11:59

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I guess you must have been or else you would have known why he had to withdraw.

https://www.politico.eu/article/a-ve...boris-johnson/ Just to refresh your memory

When you look at the list of Tory leadership candidates, the only remainer got the job.

#**16488** 15.01.2019, 12:53

	Quote:	Blueangel
	https://www.politico.eu/article/a-ve...boris-johnson/ Just to refresh your memory When you look at the list of Tory leadership candidates, the only remainer got the job.

No no, it is definitely the Remoaners fault that the cast iron, shoo-in pro-Brexit Conservative leadership candidate was stabbed in the back by the other Brexiteer. Never mind negotiating with the EU, they couldn't negotiate a few days without attempting to sabotage each other.

#**16489** 15.01.2019, 12:56

	Quote:	Blueangel
	https://www.politico.eu/article/a-ve...boris-johnson/ Just to refresh your memory When you look at the list of Tory leadership candidates, the only remainer got the job.

Which proves my point. You can't blame the Brexiteer MPs for not wanting to take ownership of Brexit.

Blueangel · #**16490** 15.01.2019, 13:18

I think you might want to rephrase that.

#**16491** 15.01.2019, 14:48

Uh oh, Jim won't be happy at this talk.

Germany says EU ready to talk if UK rejects Brexit deal

Blueangel · #**16492** 15.01.2019, 15:14

That's already been disparaged. Think the rebuffel is on Faisal Islam's Twitter.

Urs Max · #**16493** 15.01.2019, 15:19

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Uh oh, Jim won't be happy at this talk. Germany says EU ready to talk if UK rejects Brexit deal

As ever so often, Loz, perhaps read what you link.

Heiko Maas: "The agreement stands, as it is. I doubt very much that the agreement can be fundamentally reopened. If there were a better solution, it would already have been put forward."

TobiasM · #**16494** 15.01.2019, 16:41

Im a bit confused as to why Loz thinks that post WWII Germany is in any way comparable to a potential post Brexit Britain? Its going to be a disaster for Britain, just not one that involves the levelling of cities. Plus post war Germany and Europe had to be rebuilt with help and funding from Europe, the Allies and America, which suggests a little more then going it alone.

Britain is haemorrhaging business and that business won't return. Its not just the uncertainty of no deal. It just makes little rational sense for international businesses to remain in Britain (as a base for Europe) post Brexit, regardless of the deals that are made.

I have to laugh about the open borders issue and the freedom of movement of people, that Britain will have to concede, just as Switzerland had to concede with the EU, especially as many of those who voted leave wanted to stop exactly that.

I wonder what will change here as a result and how Switzerland might be forced to also make changes in its EU deals, thanks to those pesky Brexiters.

k_and_e · #**16495** 15.01.2019, 17:11

	Quote:	Urs Max
	As ever so often, Loz, perhaps read what you link. Heiko Maas: "The agreement stands, as it is. I doubt very much that the agreement can be fundamentally reopened. If there were a better solution, it would already have been put forward."

The question is also which politician in the EU would like to be held responsible for an economic chaos.

gaburko · #**16496** 15.01.2019, 17:17

Ever since Brexit started I almost stopped watching Netflix. Reality is so much more entertaining than fiction! I would be a fantastic season finale if now Breixit is rejected...I mean, Game of Thrones makes more sense and is more realistic that this saga. Love it!

dandi · #**16497** 15.01.2019, 18:00

	Quote:	TobiasM
	I have to laugh about the open borders issue and the freedom of movement of people, that Britain will have to concede, just as Switzerland had to concede with the EU, especially as many of those who voted leave wanted to stop exactly that.

What you quoting is a freedom of movement between UK and Switzerland post brexit, kind of a different thing? In fact, blocking the FOM with the EU is the only thing that Britain has gained in May's the Brexit deal - at the expense of the perpetual backstop problem. Now that brexiteers aren't happy with this deal is another problem....

Fish Paste · #**16498** 15.01.2019, 20:01

I think TM has done a good job overall and in the circumstances.

Good speech for her tonight, and a scathing attack on JC, which was accurate.

Let’s see what happens then.

TobiasM · #**16499** 15.01.2019, 20:14

	Quote:	dandi
	What you quoting is a freedom of movement between UK and Switzerland post brexit, kind of a different thing? In fact, blocking the FOM with the EU is the only thing that Britain has gained in May's the Brexit deal - at the expense of the perpetual backstop problem. Now that brexiteers aren't happy with this deal is another problem....

No Switzerland’s deal with the EU involves a freedom of movement of people. Switzerland however does not grant those people the right to work or to stay indefinitely by the nature of Swiss law, they can control those aspects making it both expensive to stay without work and difficult for non Swiss to gain employment, however that is relatively easy with a small country like Switzerland where the bureaucratic infrastructure already exists.

#**16500** 15.01.2019, 20:44

Overwhelmingly rejected.

The show goes on...