The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[aSwissInTheUS]

	Quote:	bigblue2
	you can't create an absolutist dictatorship using peaceful means, not even on Endor

Lord Havelock Vetinari tends to disagree.

	Quote:	aSwissInTheUS
	Lord Havelock Vetinari tends to disagree.

I suspect that he might not have used purely peaceful means to come to power and certainly doesn't adopt a pacifist approach to maintaining power

[Clocker]

No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748

Better start stocking up!!

[greenmount]

	Quote:	amogles
	As long as the old guard in Europe continue to generate excuses for this type of thing rather than turning around and condemning it, they are not going to gain much credibility. And as long as the governments of France, Germany etc refuse to condemn it, that can be understood as meaning, that they cannot rule out doing the same to their own people. A bit like what is happening in France right now?

What about France? What happens there has nothing to do with EU. Or the National Front, unless you suggest all those protesters are members or will soon become members....

As for condemning police violence, if they would do that some people will be up in arms because EU is giving lectures to independent countries....damned if they do, damned if they don't. Really, let's discuss when EU is supposed to interfere because I'm getting very contradictory opinions..

[amogles]

	Quote:	greenmount
	What about France? What happens there has nothing to do with EU. Or the National Front, unless you suggest all those protesters are members or will soon become members....

I don't see whatb the National Front has to do with any of this.

	Quote:	greenmount
	As for condemning police violence, if they would do that some people will be up in arms because EU is giving lectures to independent countries....damned if they do, damned if they don't. Really, let's discuss when EU is supposed to interfere because I'm getting very contradictory opinions..

It's not primarily about condemining police violence. It's about interfering in an independent country and backing an opposition leader who, back when he was in power personally and single.handedly authorized this police violence and later mocked it on a live mic. As a result this once ruling party is down to single figures in the opinion polls, but Merkel and Macron think despite that this guy ought to be back in power because they think that's democracy. They don't understand how through actions like this they are pissing away their last claims to respectability or decency.

Anyway, I was only trying to respond to k_and_e's point about why people voted as they did.

[John William]

Well from what I've been hearing on the news - the many migrants who are waiting and
looking at ways to cross the Channel are welcoming the news that France will be opening
up lorry parks on the French side of the Channel, in the event of a No deal Brexit.

As they say it's the best news they could ever have hoped for, from a no deal Brexit
- as that would leave them with plenty of time to prise open the doors on the back of
the lorries and other vehicles stuck in the lorry parks overnight and during the day.

In fact many of them are joking that the Lorry Parks will become their new migrant camps !!

[amogles]

	Quote:	John William
	Well from what I've been hearing on the news - the many migrants who are waiting and looking at ways to cross the Channel are welcoming the news that France will be opening up lorry parks on the French side of the Channel. As they say it's the best news they could have ever have hoped for, from a no deal Brexit - as that would leave them with plenty of time to prise open the doors on the back of the lorries and other vehicles stuckin the lorry parks overnight and during the day. In fact many of them are joking that the Lorry Parks will become their new migrant camps !!

So in other words, plenty of people who are ready to risk their lives to get out of the so-wonderfiul EU and don't believe that the Uk is doomed.

Maybe somebody could distribute UKIP membership forms in the lorry camps?

[John William]

	Quote:	amogles
	So in other words, plenty of people who are ready to risk their lives to get out of the so-wonderfiul EU and don't believe that the Uk is doomed. Maybe somebody could distribute UKIP membership forms in the lorry camps?

Yes it's amazing what many migrants will do to get to a place that already speaks their second language.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	John William
	Well from what I've been hearing on the news - the many migrants who are waiting and looking at ways to cross the Channel are welcoming the news that France will be opening up lorry parks on the French side of the Channel, in the event of a No deal Brexit. As they say it's the best news they could ever have hoped for, from a no deal Brexit - as that would leave them with plenty of time to prise open the doors on the back of the lorries and other vehicles stuck in the lorry parks overnight and during the day. In fact many of them are joking that the Lorry Parks will become their new migrant camps !!

So EU country France is actually copying the Erdogan migration tactic by threatening to overflow a country with migrants. Would you be proud to be part of such an EU?

	Quote:	Clocker
	No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748 Better start stocking up!!

Whilst the UK shelves may be empty as no European product is being imported, Europe cannot aborbe in to their own food chain the amount the UK imports, so the net result will be Europe loses revenue, the farmers will become unhappy quickly


I wonder how long imports will be blocked for ?

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Whilst the UK shelves may be empty as no European product is being imported, Europe cannot aborbe in to their own food chain the amount the UK imports, so the net result will be Europe loses revenue, the farmers will become unhappy quickly I wonder how long imports will be blocked for ?

Not just the farmers, also the truck drivers.

And those are two groups of people who have a bit of a history of making their grievances known.

[amogles]

	Quote:	John William
	Yes it's amazing what many migrants will do to get to a place that already speaks their second language.

Because risking your life to go and scrape a living in a doomed and retarded sh#ithole country is easier than learning a new language and living out the rest of your days in paradise?

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	It was actually Hitler who took the project of a German superstate to its conclusion. Prior to Hitler, for example, there was no such thing as a proper German citizenship and for the most part, people were still citizens of their respective states. What a pity that after Hitler was defeated that they didn't annul that legislation.

There was no such thing as a nation state before the 19th century, what you had was nobility conquering whatever and as much as they could. Commoners didn't have passports and stuff, the underlying bureaucracy didn't exist yet and nobody (outside of the top 5%) travelled for leisure, they were busy trying to survive (*).

(*) Slight dramatisation and simplification but you get the picture.

	Quote:	Loz
	I wonder where else we see an unnatural superstate being created by force (albeit political and economic rather than physical) People don't tend to dig this sort of thing.

There is no such thing as a natural state. Every state (a few exceptions may exist) was at least to a significant degree created by the use of force.

	Quote:	Clocker
	No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748 Better start stocking up!!

The tissue shelves are the only ones that’ll be empty.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	There was no such thing as a nation state before the 19th century, what you had was nobility conquering whatever and as much as they could. Commoners didn't have passports and stuff, the underlying bureaucracy didn't exist yet and nobody (outside of the top 5%) travelled for leisure, they were busy trying to survive (*).

Before the 19th Centiry, states didn't build their justification around concepts of common ethnicity, history or language, but you just happened to be part of state A because some king or duke had conquered the bit of land you lived on, or sold it or given it as a dowry to some other king or duke. How you felt about that as an individual didn't come into it.

It was only really the 1848 revolutions that led to this changing. These movements leadi to the birth of a romantically rooted nationalism, intertwined with democratic yearnings.

Bismark's unification of Germany built on that and furthered some of the points while suppressing others.

It was WW1 and especially the peace settlement after that which basically redraw the map of not only Europe but also the Middle East and that gave nationalism a new meaning and moved it from being a vague theoretical concept to something that governed real politics. Many smaller countries came into existence on the justification of having a common language and / or ethinicity. And by consequence created the means for them to vent their anger on those minorities that didn't share that common ethnicity or language.

So Macron was actually quuite wrong when he recently pronounced that the ending and peace settlement of WW1 was a major step against nationalism. Quite the contrary, it set a lot of things into motion, including the recent wars in Yugoslavia and even what is presently happening in Syria.

In fact it was quite easy for Hitler to light the powder keg.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	There is no such thing as a natural state. Every state (a few exceptions may exist) was at least to a significant degree created by the use of force.

I agree.

But such things should remain in the past. One would hope that today we are smarter, and that we can resist the urge to re-draw the map.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	amogles
	I don't see whatb the National Front has to do with any of this. --------------------------------- Anyway, I was only trying to respond to k_and_e's point about why people voted as they did.

Yes, and I was trying to say that your example - current problems in France, hasn't much to do with the rise of European far-right parties.
People vote the way they vote for a multitude of things - promises made by politicians during campaigns, fear, hate even, personal circumstances they don't know whom to blame for, out of loyalty for a certain party or a misguided patriotism, goodness knows what. Mostly because a party has a really good campaign that targets specific groups of people, lying, dividing, creating antagonisms and the "us vs. them" situations. Lately it has become the "liberal retards" vs. "the good, hard working people of...". (it's like we are all living in a global village called..."Idaho")

That type of politics hasn't led us anywhere good, and as it seems so far, is making the situation even worse in the USA. Far-right and populism won't solve unemployment, poverty, migration etc.

[Fish Paste]

	Quote:
	I wonder how long imports will be blocked for ?

Or if at all.

The hysteria is rising.

Soon it will be 'Chrysanthemums Crisis!!! The UK will not be able to get fresh flowers as the Dutch lorries will be stuck awaiting blight inspections'.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	amogles
	So in other words, plenty of people who are ready to risk their lives to get out of the so-wonderfiul EU and don't believe that the Uk is doomed. Maybe somebody could distribute UKIP membership forms in the lorry camps?

Most come from the colonies that UK used to have, so language and very possibly - relatives already living there might be a reason for their choice. But in a way you're right - I, for one, will never understand why they prefer UK over France. In terms of racism - things are similar, social services - probably even better in France (being more socialist), food, weather, everything seems better. I guess there's also some sort of pride in the "citizen of the old empire" sense, and the hope they'll be better treated because of this and because of a large immigrant community with the same background already living there.

Let's not joke about these people's hopes. Or push them around from one country to another as if they can't think for themselves.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	I wonder how long imports will be blocked for ?

My mate's parents, who both voted Leave, have been stockpiling since November. To date, they've filled all the kitchen cupboards, the garage and one of the bedrooms. I sincerely wish I was joking.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Yes, and I was trying to say that your example - current problems in France, hasn't much to do with the rise of European far-right parties. People vote the way they vote for a multitude of things - promises made by politicians during campaigns, fear, hate even, personal circumstances they don't know whom to blame for, out of loyalty for a certain party or a misguided patriotism, goodness knows what. Mostly because a party has a really good campaign that targets specific groups of people, lying, dividing, creating antagonisms and the "us vs. them" situations. Lately it has become the "liberal retards" vs. "the good, hard working people of...". (it's like we are all living in a global village called..."Idaho") That type of politics hasn't led us anywhere good, and as it seems so far, is making the situation even worse in the USA. Far-right and populism won't solve unemployment, poverty, migration etc.

You forgot to mention that the traditional parties have brought us to this situation as they have been in power all the time and obviously had no answer to the concerns of many people.