The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	amogles
	Have you considered that maybe Trump and Brexit would never have happened if they had been more responsive and attuned in the years before that?

Well, it seems it's the explanation of choice for the boffins that don't want to admit that the media is taking control of the population.

It's easy to write a piece bleating that "the migrants are using up all your healthcare / schools / jobs / taking your 'womenfolk'" or "You will not be allowed to use massively powerful vacuum cleaners / eat bendy bananas" and blame it ALL on the EU even if it's stretching the truth. Gobshites like BoJo, JRM, Gove, Farage, and on the other side of the pond Trump would be stupid not to use that to cover up their own shortcomings, incompetance and greed, and when you have the likes of Rupert Murdoch stirring the pot, the outcome is obvious.

The people have had years of grooming by the elite to get to this state of frenzy.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	amogles
	And they equally live in the illusion that the world would be a better place for everybody if only everybody was just like them.

What absolute twaddle!

The World would be an incredibly boring place if we were all alike. I relish when people think for themselves, reason things out and come to their own conclusions. What I don't like about political extremes is the tendancy to lash out at others instead of isolating the actual issues that affect their situation in life. Choosing to belong to either extreme is not a logical standpoint, it's a reactionary one.

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Well, it seems it's the explanation of choice for the boffins that don't want to admit that the media is taking control of the population.

Firstly, the media isn't taking control of the population. Secondly, if it is, what's your solution? Controlling the media is just a step away from burning books. If you dispute this, have a look at this list and see which countries have the more authoritarian regimes.

[StirB]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Firstly, the media isn't taking control of the population. Secondly, if it is, what's your solution? Controlling the media is just a step away from burning books. If you dispute this, have a look at this list and see which countries have the more authoritarian regimes.

Perhaps a more robust system of punishment for lies in all forms of media, rather than the self-censuring or optional toothless systems we have in place at the moment.

Perhaps considering how much of the media one person / company can own would be an interesting idea too.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Firstly, the media isn't taking control of the population. Secondly, if it is, what's your solution? Controlling the media is just a step away from burning books. If you dispute this, have a look at this list and see which countries have the more authoritarian regimes.

The solution is simple. The media has to take control of itself. Fact-checking and truthful journalism would be a start and doesn't even touch on the drama llama road of "authoritarian regimes".

Why is it always hysterical extremes on this thread?

I'm not sure telling some grubby tabloid to quit writing headlines screaming that half of Turkey will move to the UK if we don't vote for Brexit is really the definition of an authoritarian regime controlling the press.

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	The solution is simple. The media has to take control of itself.

If only such a body existed.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	StirB
	Perhaps a more robust system of punishment for lies in all forms of media, rather than the self-censuring or optional toothless systems we have in place at the moment. Perhaps considering how much of the media one person / company can own would be an interesting idea too.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If only such a body existed.

Shouldn't that be linked to StirB's post as an example of "toothless"?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	I'm not sure telling some grubby tabloid to quit writing headlines screaming that half of Turkey will move to the UK if we don't vote for Brexit is really the definition of an authoritarian regime controlling the press.

especially when one of the figures quoted at the time in certain media, was more than the entire population of Turkey. Bull like that needs to be called out. Press apologies should be at least half a page and on of one of the first 3 pages of the newspaper concerned, not buried in some remote corner of the sports section.

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	I'm not sure telling some grubby tabloid to quit writing headlines screaming that half of Turkey will move to the UK if we don't vote for Brexit is really the definition of an authoritarian regime controlling the press.

They were just repeating what the politicians were saying.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	They were just repeating what the politicians were saying.

So where does that leave the media that didn't report the unsubstantiated and unrealistic guff coming from those politicians?

Did they a) believe it word for word and decide to cover it up or b) saw through the bullshit and decided it was too laughable to print?

Has to be one of the two.

[curley]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Don't countries need to APPLY and meet certain criteria if they want to join the EU? Hardly comparable with a drama-llama Nazi super-plan to invade, conquer and force acquiescence. If a country doesn't want in (like, err.. Switzerland, Norway or even Iceland) they don't have to.

True. Coercion and blackmail is much more subtle.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Have you considered that maybe Trump and Brexit would never have happened if they had been more responsive and attuned in the years before that?

Much more gratifying to point finger at some version of "the enemy of the state", aka "it wasn't me" posturing.

Everything is fault of..Media! Extremists! Leavers! Uhmmmm. Who else? How about people take some accountability instead of feeding into this popular victimhood mindset. To assume others are mere incapable victims is, again, extremely patronizing to them. You can take out Trump..Brexit, EEs..but the reasons of their popularity won't go away. Calling them stupids will not help, either. Most people do that only to virtue signal, anyways. Or showing low level of tolerance to opposing views. Or both.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Much more gratifying to point finger at some version of "the enemy of the state", aka "it wasn't me" posturing. Everything is fault of..Media! Extremists! Leavers! Uhmmmm. Who else? How about people take some accountability instead of feeding into this popular victimhood mindset. To assume others are mere incapable victims is, again, extremely patronizing to them. You can take out Trump..Brexit, EEs..but the reasons of their popularity won't go away. Calling them stupids will not help, either. Most people do that only to virtue signal, anyways. Or showing low level of tolerance to opposing views. Or both.

Oops! I don't have to point out the irony of those very people ("Media! Extremists! Leavers!") pointing the finger at the EU and playing the victim instead of taking accountability, do I?

Nobody called anyone stupid.

Nobody is virtue signalling.

Maybe read the last couple of pages before posting? Just a thought...

[22 yards]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you dispute this, have a look at this list and see which countries have the more authoritarian regimes.

Ouch, that must hurt: your favourite object of scorn, Australia (19), ranked by RSF way above the UK (40) for press freedom. But at least you can take comfort in the fact that the British government really knows what it's doing, and tells you so via the media.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Oops! I don't have to point out the irony of those very people ("Media! Extremists! Leavers!") pointing the finger at the EU and playing the victim instead of taking accountability, do I? Nobody called anyone stupid. Nobody is virtue signalling. Maybe read the last couple of pages before posting? Just a thought...

Yeah, just repeating that to yourself .Even if the whole planet goes to the dogs, it's always better to know who who blame than to think about how to fix it.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	amogles
	Yeah, just (keep?) repeating that to yourself .Even if the whole planet goes to the dogs, it's always better to know who who blame than to think about how to fix it.

That doesn't even make sense. Did you quote me when you meant to quote MC?

I was just there pointing out the painful irony.

No fuss, no mess, no blame.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	But such things should remain in the past. One would hope that today we are smarter, and that we can resist the urge to re-draw the map.

I largely agree with the rest. But this seems a bit naive as sooner or later some won't accept that they didn't get their will. Might is right.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Yeah, just repeating that to yourself .Even if the whole planet goes to the dogs, it's always better to know wjo who blame than to think about how to fix it.

But..'are you sure you understand well the term "blame" '? Lol. Or, 'have you actually read the last few pages'?

There are ways to dumb down the debate so much that there is literally virtually no space for any exchange of opinions. Hostility and witch-hunts are some of them.

The planet is going to the dogs, period. Powergames over who's the assigned culprit are completely inefficient and unconstructive, especially when those aren't the real culprits. Business is. Media do what any other business does - sell. Unless you lose customers, you keep selling. Try working with customers' choices instead of outraging over the assigned culprits.

This "let's work together" slogan of the populists might appeal more and more to customers. Helped the Brexit..Trump, etc. It may actually not be just populistic manipulation but actual plan to work together.

[baboon]

	Quote:	curley
	True. Coercion and blackmail is much more subtle.

What on earth do coercion or blackmail come into it?

It's very simple. The EU is effectively a club. Join the club and you get the benefits of being a member,e.g. free and - through the single market - barrier free trade, development support, agricultural support etc. However to join the club you need to accept certain conditions (the four freedoms, the rules of the single market plus minimum environmental and working standard rules for example) and also pay a membership fee.

Leave the club and you loose the benefits. If you want to retain the benefits without being a member you have to accept paying a part of the price (financial or rule compliance) relative to the benefits you wish to retain. You certainly do not get to say which benefits you want to retain without paying any price.

[MusicChick]

Problems appeared when some standards (env., public health and labor law) had to be lowered for some members when they joined. And their inexpensive but quality med labs dissolved, for example, because the EU started forcing (read selling) useless kits, and edu modules on how to work with them. Same with local pharma industry, etc. But up and up... It is just another form of extremely protected globalization.

I see the current movements not as extreme right or populist but as a pushback against globalization. It works here. Don't get the hysterics when other states just try to apply the austerity and market protection that has been here in CH for eons and that attracted enough EFrs to get on with the program. Despite the measures.