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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #17041  
Old 31.01.2019, 00:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Ahem telling people what to write, do, think....much? Where is curley when you need her.
curley is right here. And agrees with Today Only: The vote was done, get over it. Which was a clear statement with the logically resulting advice.

Unlike "Tom you should, you really shouldn't, you always ....".
(By the way "you always ...." is the best known relationship killer. But that is besides the point here).


On the other hand I'm a bit surprised Today Only is still trying to apply logic on Brexit.
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  #17042  
Old 31.01.2019, 01:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If we can add Equador, Gabon and Laos, we will be on a roll.
Ecuador will not appreciate the Brits falling back into the habit of changing the name of other people's countries though.

I'll have it!

Without the flag on the door though, that will be rather embarrassing for a long while.
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  #17043  
Old 31.01.2019, 06:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I feel the same way about not having the right to vote on something which will have an effect on us too.
... allowed those of us who have been outside of the UK for more than 15 years the right to vote in it then I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t be in this mess now.
I think it was sufficient to still have been on a UK electoral roll less than 15 years previous to 2016 to secure a vote in the referendum. I left more than 15 years before the referendum, yet still got a vote.
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Exactly, would not wish anyone harm - but the lack of concern and empathy from some people for those who are currently truly and severely affected by the realities of Brexit - is truly upsetting. To vote on such a massive issue, without having to weather any of the consequences, seems so wrong.
I agree, I can't believe so many people actually voted 'Remain'!
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  #17044  
Old 31.01.2019, 06:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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curley is right here. And agrees with Today Only: The vote was done, get over it. Which was a clear statement with the logically resulting advice.

Unlike "Tom you should, you really shouldn't, you always ....".
(By the way "you always ...." is the best known relationship killer. But that is besides the point here).


On the other hand I'm a bit surprised Today Only is still trying to apply logic on Brexit.
OMG, hilarious...I almost spilled my coffee... Is this discussion for real? I think you are seriously projecting some things here. Are we talking about the same Tom as some sort of "victim"? I bet he enjoys this attention...but I also know he has a lot more humour than you give him credit for. As far as a couple of discussions are concerned - it's called dialogue or, in our case - banter. He's a big boy and a veteran on EF and knows very well he'll get some reactions after his ahem, typical posts. You don't really have to defend his honour or something. And he gets them from a lot of people here, you trying to pick on me is kind of weird. I, for one, certainly don't enjoy your constant attention. I am not gonna tell you to go lecture some family members instead because I personally have some limits. I don't want to win any cyber "war" with you curley, I engage with whomever I like or see fit. I actually don't know why I bothered replying to your last couple of posts anything more than the one liner "I beg your pardon?"and leave it at that....it's not like they deserved a real comment from me. Have a good day! Seriously.
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  #17045  
Old 31.01.2019, 07:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Or,

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IT HAS BEEN a good week for Theresa May. In a series of votes on January 29th she secured backing from almost all Tory MPs and from her Northern Irish Democratic Unionist allies for a motion asking her to go to Brussels to seek changes to her Brexit deal. She also defeated two amendments that could have seen MPs take charge of the Brexit process. She comprehensively out-debated the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, but still got him to drop his refusal to talk to her about how to get a new Brexit deal past MPs who resoundingly rejected the first version two weeks ago.

Two developments underlay her success. The first was an amendment by Sir Graham Brady, a leading Tory backbencher, that backed her Brexit deal so long as the much-disliked Irish “backstop”, an insurance policy to avert a hard border in Ireland by keeping the United Kingdom in a customs union with the European Union, is replaced by what it coyly called “alternative arrangements”. The second was a plan hatched by Tories from both wings of the party, dubbed the Malthouse compromise after a junior housing minister, for a different backstop and for a longer transition period even if no withdrawal agreement is ratified. Although the Malthouse compromise seems unrealistic and Sir Graham’s plan lacks specifics, the combination was enough for the Brady amendment to win by 317 votes to 301.


A third crucial element was Mrs May’s promise to allow MPs another lot of votes on Brexit on February 14th. This was enough to head off for now amendments by Yvette Cooper, a Labour MP, and Dominic Grieve, a Tory, to rip up normal parliamentary procedure and pass their own bills designed to stop a no-deal Brexit and explore other options instead. Fourteen Labour MPs defied their party whip to sink the Cooper amendment; they may yet come round to backing a revised deal. For Mrs May, the only fly in the ointment was the passage of another amendment from Dame Caroline Spelman, a Tory, to reject a no-deal Brexit. But this has no legal force.

Yet Mrs May’s triumph will prove short-lived. Even as the Brady amendment was being voted through, the EU was insisting that the Brexit withdrawal agreement, a treaty that includes the Irish backstop, could not be reopened. EU leaders are exasperated that Mrs May now supports a plan that jettisons a central part of the deal which she had previously insisted was the only one available.

Brussels is all the more unwilling to reopen negotiations because Mrs May still refuses to change any of her red lines. As Kenneth Clarke, a veteran Tory, put it in the debate, the logical outcome now would be a permanent customs union with regulatory alignment, but Mrs May still rules this out. Moreover, if the withdrawal agreement were reopened, the EU thinks other issues such as fisheries, the budget or Gibraltar would be raised by leaders who believe they have already given Britain too many concessions. And the European Parliament, whose assent is needed for any deal, might well reject a deal that radically alters the current one.

Above all, the EU is not prepared to throw Ireland, which insists on keeping the backstop in order to avoid a hard border in all circumstances, under the bus. The interests of a member always come above those of a leaver. The backstop is seen as an inevitable outcome of Britain’s red lines of leaving the customs union and single market. Stopping a hard border is also vital protection for the Good Friday Agreement that ended the troubles in Northern Ireland.

Claims that some untried new technology can avoid all checks and controls on the Irish border are still seen in Brussels as magical thinking. Indeed, Brexiteers’ insistence on removing the backstop is treated as evidence of doubts that their own magic would work. And the repeated lurches in Britain’s approaches to Brexit seem only to strengthen the case for keeping the backstop as an insurance policy.

None of this means that the EU will do nothing to help Mrs May. It has already offered clarifications to make clear that it does not want the backstop to be used and that, if it were, it would only be temporary. These could be given greater legal force, perhaps through an interpretative agreement or codicil, so long as this does not contradict the withdrawal agreement itself. And Brussels is already hinting that, if more time is needed beyond March 29th, the date set for Brexit under Article 50, it is ready to entertain the notion.

With less than two months left, it is indeed increasingly clear that some extension of Article 50 will be necessary. Parliament must pass a massive withdrawal act as well as other big pieces of legislation and hundreds of statutory instruments before Brexit can happen. Only limited progress has been made in rolling over existing EU free-trade agreements that Britain will lose on its departure. When Mrs May was repeatedly asked in the Commons by Ms Cooper whether she would seek the EU’s agreement to extend Article 50, she refused to answer. But she also ostentatiously did not rule out the idea altogether.

And this plays into the other big concern of the week, which is the growing risk of a Brexit on March 29th with no deal at all. The response of British business to the Commons votes was glum. The failure of Ms Cooper’s amendment means that no deal is still on the table as the default option, even if a majority of MPs have voted not to support it. Sabine Weyand, deputy to Michel Barnier, the EU’s Brexit negotiator, declared this week that the risk of no deal was going up.

The markets seem more sanguine. The pound has actually risen in value since Mrs May’s deal was rejected by MPs. But many analysts think traders are underestimating the chances of a no-deal Brexit. Paul Hardy, a Brexit adviser at DLA Piper, a law firm, reckons the EU is better prepared for no deal than Britain. He adds, however, that a big concern in Brussels will be to avoid the blame should a no-deal Brexit actually transpire.

It is this potential game of blame-shifting that makes the chance of no deal so worrying. Several Tory MPs and even some cabinet ministers have said they would fight any deliberate decision to go for a no-deal Brexit, if need be by resigning the party whip. EU leaders, too, will do whatever they can to avoid such an outcome, which would seriously damage not just Britain but the entire EU, and most notably Ireland. But if the clock runs down and both sides start blaming each other for being too intransigent, no deal could still happen by accident. To prevent it may take defter diplomacy and greater flexibility than either Mrs May or the EU have shown during the past two years.
from www.economist.com
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  #17046  
Old 31.01.2019, 07:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think it was sufficient to still have been on a UK electoral roll less than 15 years previous to 2016 to secure a vote in the referendum. I left more than 15 years before the referendum, yet still got a vote.
From Wiki:
British citizens living abroad may vote in UK general elections, referendums and European Parliament elections for up to 15 years after leaving the UK. However, they may only do so if they were registered to vote in the UK while living there. British expatriates who were under 18 at the time of leaving the UK may vote as long as their parent or guardian was registered to vote in the UK.

British expatriates are not allowed to vote in local elections or in elections for the devolved Scottish Parliament or Welsh or Northern Irish Assemblies.[50]

In February 2018, the Overseas Electors Bill was presented to Parliament, with a view to abolishing the 15-year limit and the requirement to have registered to vote before leaving the UK. This would grant all British expatriates the unlimited right to vote, as long as they have lived in the UK at some point in their lives.[51][52] The issue became a hotly debated topic among British expatriates who have lived in other EU Member States for more than 15 years and were thus barred from voting in the referendum on European Union membership, despite arguably being more affected by the result than British people living in the UK.
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  #17047  
Old 31.01.2019, 07:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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despite arguably being more affected by the result than British people living in the UK.
Are they actually more affected? Not much will change if they keep their residence permit.

I would think that people that plan to move to the EU would be most affected, then the people living in UK.
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  #17048  
Old 31.01.2019, 07:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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From Wiki:
British citizens living abroad may vote in UK general elections, referendums and European Parliament elections for up to 15 years after leaving the UK. However, they may only do so if they were registered to vote in the UK while living there.
The problem is the electoral roll is not kept properly up to date in the UK. If no one at your old address subsequently takes you off it, you can potentially stay on it for years, possibly decades. I guess this is why it was possible for people like myself still to receive a vote.
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  #17049  
Old 31.01.2019, 07:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Are they actually more affected? Not much will change if they keep their residence permit.
Despite frequent ‘assurances’ nothing has been signed off, has it? It’s arguable whether they are more affected but surely affected enough to warrant a vote on it.

Most other nations don’t have this time limit on voting.
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  #17050  
Old 31.01.2019, 07:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think it was sufficient to still have been on a UK electoral roll less than 15 years previous to 2016 to secure a vote in the referendum. I left more than 15 years before the referendum, yet still got a vote.
I've heard cases like this so many times now.

I was alerted to the voter database not being up to date when I received two votes myself. One was a postal vote in Switzerland, the other a physical ballot paper at my former UK home and in my old married name, even though I'd moved my vote to a new UK address in 2014. I was honest and called the local electoral helpline number and didn't have to go into much detail with them as it was my best mate's wife who answered, and she knows my entire 'history'. She freely admits that the helpline was swamped with calls from people who hadn't received their ballot, or had received multiple ballots in different names, particularly from women who received forms in their married and maiden names.

The most disturbing case I've heard is from someone who only lived in the UK for a shade over 2yrs, has never held a British passport or residency, yet still received a postal vote in Switzerland several years after leaving the UK. WTAF?!!!

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I agree, I can't believe so many people actually voted 'Remain'!
Besides the emotional responses I could rattle on about (close friends and family with EU partners/spouses/children, including myself, and the dozens of friends who've seen their jobs shipped over to the continent), I've worked full time in 3 industries over the last 30yrs. All 3 stood to be heavily impacted by Brexit without any shadow of a doubt.

My decision was 100% clear and absolute from day 1, and nothing that has happened in the interim has changed my opinion.

My partner's No.1 concern all along, was passporting rights in the financial sector, even though if we still lived together in the UK, he would be one of the people having to register to stay.

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Barclays is preparing to pull the trigger on no-deal Brexit plans to shift assets worth £166bn (€190bn) to its Irish division as it "cannot wait any longer" amid continuing political uncertainty, a High Court judgment has revealed.The plans were drawn up by the bank in case of a no-deal scenario which would see UK financial services firms losing "passporting" rights that allow them to provide services across Europe.
https://news.sky.com/story/barclays-...-plan-11622383
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  #17051  
Old 31.01.2019, 08:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The problem is the electoral roll is not kept properly up to date in the UK. If no one at your old address subsequently takes you off it, you can potentially stay on it for years, possibly decades. I guess this is why it was possible for people like myself still to receive a vote.
That only works if you know somebody who is still living at the address and who forwards the voting papers on to you.

I was still on the electoral roll at my parents house even after we left the UK until Maggie and the infamous poll tax came along. I was swiftly removed by my father once the possibility of having to pay depending on the number of adults living in the household cane along.

After that I was registered as an overseas voter based on my last place of residence and continued to exercise my right to vote right up until the 15 year limit.

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I'm outraged on your behalf. Why on earth are you not allowed to vote even if you've been outside of your own country for a longer period? I haven't heard of this type of rules before, so I'm really surprised. I don't see any sense in this.
It is ridiculous.

When we lived in Belgium as we were EU nationals we had the right to vote in the local and EU elections but not the national ones although we could still vote in the UK general elections until the 15 years expired.

Once we moved here to Switzerland we had no voting rights anywhere in any country. We had lost the UK rights so couldn’t vote there and until we had been here for 5 years and got our C permits we had no right to vote in Switzerland either. Now we can vote in the cantonal and communal votes here.
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  #17052  
Old 31.01.2019, 09:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That only works if you know somebody who is still living at the address and who forwards the voting papers on to you
No, there are other ways. I applied for a postal vote from Switzerland as I knew that you could still vote if you were on an electoral roll in the UK (or had still been in the preceding 15 years). The fact that I had left more than 15 years before, became, in this instance largely irrelevant.

The address where I was still on an electoral roll was a student house and after moving, the next residents obviously never filled anything in to update the records. I still distinctly remember in 3 different student houses filling in the forms myself and 'cleaning' up the records by deleting names of people that had moved on. Clearly at one address, nobody did this for several years long after I myself had left, hence me and others staying on it.

The UK electoral roll system is very sloppy. You can be registered at several addresses or simply remain on the electoral roll decades after having left or even having passed away.
I worked with marketing and market research data in the 1990s in the UK for a time and we used, in part, the electoral roll. I still remember a telephone call with a woman who very angrily told me that the woman I was looking for had died 20 years previous. I politely explained that we had the details from the electoral roll and that the woman was still on it. The woman on the phone said she had only taken over the phone number and had not lived at the address of the deceased woman so couldn't (or refused to) do anything about it.

Nobody from my old UK address needed to forward me anything for me to be able to vote.
The website for this at the time made it clear that voting was possible in these circumstances. Nothing was mentioned about where you were legally residing.

My application based on that old address was accepted by the local UK authority and as such, like any sensible person, I exercised my right to vote 'Leave', naturally.
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  #17053  
Old 31.01.2019, 09:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If you could vote in the last general election, you can vote in the EU referendum.

For people who live in the UK, that means British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens.

You must also be 18 or over on referendum day (23 June) and registered to vote.

For people who live abroad, you can vote if you’re a British citizen or Irish citizen from Northern Ireland who has been registered to vote here in the last 15 years.

If you’re lucky enough to live in Gibraltar or be a member of the House of Lords, you wouldn’t be able to vote in a general election, but you can vote in the referendum.

Who can’t vote?

The flipside of “who can vote” is “who can’t vote”.

And you can’t vote if you’re an EU citizen living here, unless you’re from Ireland, Malta or Cyprus.

British citizens living abroad for more than 15 years can’t vote either.
This advice was given before the Referendum. It, frankly, ignores the question of who will be most affected. A 15+ British expat in Switzerland who intends to return will be much more affected than a 15+ Canadian expat in the UK who also intends to return. But the Canuck votes.

Why did the Irish, the Cypriots or the Maltese get to vote when other EU nationals did not.

As this matter is one of sovereignty then all British, but only the British, above a certain age should have a say.
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  #17054  
Old 31.01.2019, 09:34
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What concerns me far more are the thousands of social projects in the UK that heavily rely on EU funding. The one I'm most familiar with (as my mate was the manager of it until a few weeks ago), receives 55% of all it's funding from an EU grant, and the rest from local businesses. A couple of weeks ago, I saw an Olympic athlete go on 'Mastermind' to raise funds for this project. That's what it's come to.
This argument might hold some weight in Malta, Lithuania or Ireland, but not in a country that is a net contributor to the EU. You do realise that the EU has no money of its own, right?
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  #17055  
Old 31.01.2019, 09:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This argument might hold some weight in Malta, Lithuania or Ireland, but not in a country that is a net contributor to the EU. You do realise that the EU has no money of its own, right?
So you are saying the UK will continue to fund these projects post-Brexit?

I seriously doubt that.
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  #17056  
Old 31.01.2019, 09:45
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So you are saying the UK will continue to fund these projects post-Brexit?

I seriously doubt that.
I don't see any reason why not. Rather than sending off a pound to Brussels and being grateful for the 50p that comes back to fund such projects, the country will be able to put the original pound in.
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Old 31.01.2019, 09:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So you are saying the UK will continue to fund these projects post-Brexit?

I seriously doubt that.
We can choose not to. That's taking are sovrinty back.

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I don't see any reason why not. Rather than sending off a pound to Brussels and being grateful for the 50p that comes back to fund such projects, the country will be able to put the original pound in.
Probably because almost every economic prediction shows us having fewer of those pounds to distribute, post EU.
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Old 31.01.2019, 09:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't see any reason why not. Rather than sending off a pound to Brussels and being grateful for the 50p that comes back to fund such projects, the country will be able to put the original pound in.
"...put the original pound in..."? Most of these projects didn't even exist before the EU.

Jesus, this is the government that can't properly fund public services, how on earth do you have so much confidence that they'll find the wherewithal to fund community projects?

I know it's easy to convince Brexiters that it's all the EU's fault and they are sucking all the money up but there are people out there that see past the blarney and fantasy-feelgood "logic".

OMG, this thread...
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Old 31.01.2019, 09:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"...put the original pound in..."? Most of these projects didn't even exist before the EU.

Just drive through Scotland: the amount of roads/bridges/etc with a notice "financed with funds from the EU" is high.


Good luck to them now, so far away from London
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Old 31.01.2019, 09:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just drive through Scotland: the amount of roads/bridges/etc with a notice "financed with funds from the EU" is high.
Indeed, the propaganda machine has to work overtime in the most impoverished parts of the country.
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