The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Will people ever stop obsessing over the "lies on the bus"? Who do they think voters are...

Depends who you are the cheerleader for. You appear to be a wannabe Brexiter so the bus triggers like mad

Of course the bus is bollocks but it‘s an enduring metaphor for Brexit and it‘s more of a coverall for each time one of the Brexit fanboys on here trots out some tired old load of cock which is repeatedly debunked.

[Odile]

Of course we are 'still at it' never more important than now.

I doubt the people you have been talking to on a pro Brexit forum are representative of the forgotten and vulnerable people all over the UK, especially the old tradtional industrial north - they probably are not very active on Forums or other platforms.

Huge numbers voted in anger with their situation - caused by austerity measures and changes to social security- and many factors that have nothing to do with the EU, zilch, nada, zero - and placed their hope in lies and a fraudulent campaign and the promise of better jobs, better NHS- and unicorns.

Oh, good to see you back.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	I doubt the people you have been talking to on a pro Brexit forum are representative of the forgotten and vulnerable people all over the UK, especially the old tradtional industrial north - they probably are not very active on Forums or other platforms. Huge numbers voted in anger with their situation - caused by austerity measures and changes to social security- and many factors that have nothing to do with the EU, zilch, nada, zero - and placed their hope in lies and a fraudulent campaign and the promise of better jobs, better NHS- and unicorns.

The forum is based in a mining district which was brought to its knees from the sixties through to the eighties and has never really recovered. The overwhelming majority of its members are working class. The people who contribute to discussions on Brexit are very well informed and knew very well what they were voting for.

You were saying?

[MusicChick]

I find it really hard to tolerate when people try to prove a point by trying to pseudo defend some distant group of people...by saying how weak, undereducated and uninformed that particular group is. Opression olympics. Whatever suits that particular moment.

It would be genuine to say..."I have personal vested interests. I don't want Brexit because my own future seems unpredictable".

Everybody's future is always unpredictable. Even for the Swiss who haven't paid into their own retirement pensions in their own country and they are back home.

We will all be in the same boat, one way or another.

[Odile]

And because they are very concerned about this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...jEcMvWcFftX3FU

Yes, DB, this is exactly what I was saying. Communities that have suffered so much of the loss of traditional industries and mining- were jobs are scare, and suffering from Austerity measures which have nothing to do with the EU.

As for our current personal situation and vested interests, I totally agree MC- it is very unusual and totally by the by and irrelevant. And has nothing to do with my wish to remain and combat the disaster which is happening right now. We could actually do very well out of this debâcle, actually- but this has nothing to do with it.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I find it really hard to tolerate when people try to prove a point by trying to pseudo defend some distant group of people...by saying how weak, undereducated and uninformed that particular group is. Opression olympics. Whatever suits that particular moment. It would be genuine to say..."I have personal vested interests. I don't want Brexit because my own future seems unpredictable". Everybody's future is always unpredictable. Even for the Swiss who haven't paid into their own retirement pensions in their own country and they are back home. We will all be in the same boat, one way or another.

In that case you‘d probably be better switching over to DB‘s working-man‘s Brexit forum rather than looking for people directly affected on an expat forum in Switzerland.

It affects most of us Brits here only indirectly via the connection we have to the poor sods (friends and relations) living there in the current mess.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	Yes, DB, this is exactly what I was saying. Communities that have suffered so much of the loss of traditional industries and mining- were jobs are scare, and suffering from Austerity measures which have nothing to do with the EU.

I know that's what you are saying. You are wrong. I am in direct, daily contact with people in areas such as you describe, and can assure you that they are a lot better informed on the subject than you give them credit for.

[Odile]

I imagine Polly Toynbee is not your cuppa, but she says it very well. Wait until people realise they have been taken for a big bus ride, and it is their communities that get hit very badly:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...0hH2A_X_KChp34

Yes, DB, some are very aware. I also have good daily contact with friends in Sunderland and the North East in general.

[MusicChick]

"Uninformed poor sods who were lied to on the buses".

Right.

They seem to be able to take their future in their own hands better than their EU buddies.

I bet my shoes on the fact that the "poor sods" actually knew what they were doing when they voted.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	I imagine Polly Toynbee is not your cuppa, but she says it very well.

I am not remotely interested in what Polly Toynbee has to tell me about what working class people are thinking and saying because I am reading what working class people have to say in their own words.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	"Uninformed poor sods who were lied to on the buses". Right.

Wrong.

I‘m talking about people who voted remain. Yes, they do know what they voted for and this isn‘t it.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	They seem to be able to take their future in their own hands better than their EU buddies. I bet my shoes on the fact that the poor sods actually knew what they were doing when they voted.

You realise that little island still has a hefty wodge of people who DIDN‘T vote to leave, don‘t you?

[MusicChick]

I get cautious anytime people try to pose as spoke-person for somebody else, esp any large group of folks. "You gotta believe me because that's how they feel."

They don't, really, me thinks. Things are way less dramatic and lot more pragmatic.

I don't believe one second that Leavers need anyone here to represent them in any way. Nor Remainers, at all.

We all will be affected by Brexit..if it happens. Precedence. It looks like that's why it is being sabotaged?

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I get cautious anytime people try to pose as spoke-person for somebody else, esp any large group of folks. "You gotta believe me because that's how they feel." ?

Jesus, this thread must have freaked you out from start to finish then.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	I am in direct, daily contact with people in areas such as you describe, and can assure you that they are a lot better informed on the subject than you give them credit for.

Ditto, but it sounds like you've found yourself an echo chamber.

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	I am not remotely interested in what Polly Toynbee has to tell me about what working class people are thinking and saying because I am reading what working class people have to say in their own words.

You mean people like me?

So my opinion and words are irrelevent because you're in contact with other working class people who think the same as you do? My dad was a pit mechanic until my mum put her foot down and he found work as a night shift mechanic on the canning line at Heinz.

Literally dozens of my oldest friends worked at Bickershaw Colliery until it closed. They had some tough years, but they all found other work eventually.

Let's get something straight here... I don't know you. I read the words you put onto a forum, but I don't know you. The people who I do know are the people I've spent 40+yrs of my life socialising with. I've known them through various jobs, relationships, marriages, kids, etc... We've been drunk together hundreds of times, shared thousands of jokes and good times, plus some sad ones too. They are my friends. They are part of the very fabric of my being. They held me together when my whole world fell apart. Forgive me for believing them over anything you may write because they are my real world. Amongst all of them, I can count on one hand the number who agree with you.

[marton]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	I am not remotely interested in what Polly Toynbee has to tell me about what working class people are thinking and saying because I am reading what working class people have written to say in their own words.

ftfy

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Ditto, but it sounds like you've found yourself an echo chamber. You mean people like me? So my opinion and words are irrelevent because you're in contact with other working class people who think the same as you do? My dad was a pit mechanic until my mum put her foot down and he found work as a night shift mechanic on the canning line at Heinz. Literally dozens of my oldest friends worked at Bickershaw Colliery until it closed. They had some tough years, but they all found other work eventually. Let's get something straight here... I don't know you. I read the words you put onto a forum, but I don't know you. The people who I do know are the people I've spent 40+yrs of my life socialising with. I've known them through various jobs, relationships, marriages, kids, etc... We've been drunk together hundreds of times, shared thousands of jokes and good times, plus some sad ones too. They are my friends. They are part of the very fabric of my being. They held me together when my whole world fell apart. Forgive me for believing them over anything you may write because they are my real world. Amongst all of them, I can count on one hand the number who agree with you.

Nice essay, but it seems to be a response to a post I never made.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Nice essay, but it seems to be a response to a post I never made.

DB, you did say that you're in daily contact with working class people in England, and that they knew what they were doing when they voted (I disagree on that, I think many people just wanted to stick two fingers up to Cameron and the Tories in general), and you implied that these people whose utterances you read daily are correct in all they say, because they live in the UK, so they would know.

Blueangel's post makes perfect sense to me. She's just putting her contrary view across—in response to your post.

On a related subject, and nothing to do with either of you, I do find it extraordinary that people who have no connection with, and have never even lived in, the UK have such strong opinions and feel entitled to opine on Brexit. It looks a lot like the finger-sticker-uppers: Brexit is just a proxy, an opportunity to express (in a couple of cases here on EF) right-wing nationalist views.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	lewton
	Are Trump supporters really that young?

I was always curious to know more about who voted whom and why. I think age was not pinned down as a decisive factor, other things such as education and ethnicity were analysed. If you find some other relevant study, please post it on the Trump thread

http://www.people-press.org/2018/08/...idated-voters/

	Quote:
	About half (52%) of validated voters were married; among them, Trump had a 55% to 39% majority. Among unmarried voters, Clinton led by a similar margin (58% to 34%). Just 13% of validated voters in 2016 were younger than 30. Voters in this age group reported voting for Clinton over Trump by a margin of 58% to 28%, with 14% supporting one of the third-party candidates. Among voters ages 30 to 49, 51% supported Clinton and 40% favored Trump. Trump had an advantage among 50- to 64-year-old voters (51% to 45%) and those 65 and older (53% to 44%).

I guess it's similar with Brexit. Unfortunately (from our POV of course) the groups he had advantages among are also the ones who take voting very seriously. :-) Youth absenteeism at elections is a well known problem...so there.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	22 yards
	DB, you did say that you're in daily contact with working class people in England, and that they knew what they were doing when they voted (I disagree on that, I think many people just wanted to stick two fingers up to Cameron and the Tories in general), and you implied that these people whose utterances you read daily are correct in all they say, because they live in the UK, so they would know.

Um, no I didn't. In fact, I said at least twice that I disagreed with much of what they say.

My point is that rather than listening to what Polly Toynbee and people on EF say people are thinking and saying, we should listen to what the people themselves are saying - and what they are saying, in my experience, is not what Polly Toynbee and people on EF are saying they're saying.

Any clearer?

[k_and_e]

Still, the helpless people were ruthlessly misled in the Brexit referendum. The poor, the blind, the old, the limp, the blind, the deaf: all were misled.
The believed in a country of unicorns and fairies, a non-EU walhalla, a paradise on earth but got the snake from Adam and Eve.


Maybe better that they wouldn't be allowed to vote at all.